00:00:02,360 --> 00:00:05,920 [Bob] 

Let's look at Freemasonry as a book of many chapters. 

00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:14,240 [Bob] 

Entered Apprentice, Fellow Craft, Master Mason. What about the other chapters? You got to finish reading the book. 

00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:23,000 [Bob] 

Did you find something of interest in those first three chapters that would make you want to read the book any further? 

00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:27,840 [Dan] 

All right. 

00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:28,080 [Bob] 

Great. 

00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:28,560 [Dan] 

How you doing? 

00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:31,020 [Bob] 

I'm bearing up under the strain. 

00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:49,440 [Dan] 

We've got you on to talk about the various side orders that are available to Freemasons after the third degree. But first, before we get into that, I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about yourself. Mm-hmm. 

00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:52,460 [Bob] 

I started school in Birdling Flat. 

00:00:52,460 --> 00:00:52,560 [Dan] 

Oh. 

00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:54,420 [Dan] 

So you're- 

00:00:54,420 --> 00:00:55,740 [Bob] 

When it had a school 

00:00:55,740 --> 00:00:58,920 [Dan] 

... You're responsible for taking all the gemstones from the beach, are you? 

00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:06,020 [Bob] 

No, we used to think the silly buggers coming from Christchurch- ... spending times on the beach looking for stone. 

00:01:06,020 --> 00:01:06,610 [Dan] 

Yeah. 

00:01:07,580 --> 00:01:09,920 [Bob] 

Yeah, so that schools in 

00:01:11,380 --> 00:01:24,200 [Bob] 

Westport, and Reefton, and Ohai, and Opotika. Back to Christchurch in 1953, it would've been. And then to Birdling's Flat. 

00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:34,420 [Bob] 

I completed my primary school education while I was at Birdling's Flat. Then went to Lincoln District High School when it was a district high school. 

00:01:34,420 --> 00:01:35,539 [Dan] 

Oh, great. 

00:01:35,540 --> 00:01:35,780 [Bob] 

Used to 

00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:39,480 [Bob] 

catch the bus that came from Little River. 

00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:39,940 [Dan] 

Mm-hmm. 

00:01:39,940 --> 00:01:44,600 [Bob] 

And did school there. And then I left to go to work. I joined the Navy, 

00:01:45,920 --> 00:02:08,479 [Bob] 

and then I was mechanical overseer for a while. I was in charge of the mechanical workshop then. Then I became the quality assurance manager, which they allowed me to branch into detail into the manufacture of explosives and testing of explosives and stuff like that. I joined Freemasonry in 1974 because my dad said I should. 

00:02:08,920 --> 00:02:10,000 [Dan] 

And that was it? 

00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:11,579 [Bob] 

Yeah. 

00:02:11,640 --> 00:02:14,190 [Dan] 

Fair enough. So your dad was Freemason here? 

00:02:14,190 --> 00:02:15,260 [Bob] 

He was a Freemason, yeah. He joined, 

00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:21,800 [Bob] 

he was a member of Lodge Wairakei, which meets- 

00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:22,220 [Dan] 

All right 

00:02:22,220 --> 00:02:26,160 [Bob] 

... in Otahuhu. When we moved to 

00:02:27,820 --> 00:02:31,780 [Bob] 

Ohai, that's where he joined when we were in Ohai. 

00:02:32,900 --> 00:03:02,380 [Bob] 

The reason we went to Ohai from Reefton was he was a manager of the miners' hostel in Reefton, and they were opening a new miners' hostel for the accommodation of the miners in Ohai, and he was the first manager there. So anyhow, when I got back from UK, '64, Dad at that time was in Picton and commented about Freemasonry again, and he says, "Oh, I'll take you to... You're still interested?" "Yeah, I'm still interested." 

00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:08,760 [Bob] 

Not know anything about it, not even pursued any further real inquiry 

00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:17,140 [Bob] 

into it. And he said, "Oh, I'll take you to see this guy." And that was Shuttleworth at the time, who was the Grand Master. 

00:03:17,140 --> 00:03:18,240 [Dan] 

Mm-hmm. 

00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:18,580 [Bob] 

And 

00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:21,740 [Bob] 

he was living in 

00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:35,780 [Bob] 

Renwick, I think it was. When I got back to Auckland, Shuttleworth gave me the name of an officer who was in the Navy, who was a Freemason. So I went to see him and said that I was interested, and he says, "Yep." 

00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:38,620 [Bob] 

And that was it. Know nothing. 

00:03:40,060 --> 00:03:56,580 [Bob] 

And then when I was in the fleet maintenance unit, Freemasonry came up in a conversation. I'd seen the guy and I said, "I mentioned to this and this was probably two years previously, and nothing's happened." And my boss at the time says, "Oh, do you still want to join?" "Yeah." "Right." Gone. So 

00:03:57,660 --> 00:04:09,560 [Bob] 

in the fleet maintenance unit, there was my boss and there was another chief who was a member of Lodge Albion at the time. So that was 1974. 

00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:10,640 [Dan] 

Number 45. 

00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:14,700 [Bob] 

Yep. Number 45. And I'm still a member of 45. 

00:04:14,700 --> 00:04:16,540 [Dan] 

Yep. Mm. 

00:04:16,540 --> 00:04:24,600 [Bob] 

So I was initiated into 45 and didn't really participate 

00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:28,620 [Bob] 

from '74 until '81 when I left the sea. 

00:04:30,280 --> 00:04:45,920 [Bob] 

I teamed up with a guy, a New Zealander, who'd done 90% of his working life overseas, and he'd come back to New Zealand and set up a company called Fantech, which is a branch of an Australian company called Fantech. 

00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:46,180 [Dan] 

Mm. 

00:04:46,180 --> 00:05:06,060 [Bob] 

And their task was industrial fans, ventilation equipment. When he came from Australia, he was involved with a lodge called Lodge of Rhetoric Improvement, and it was a speaking lodge. And he says, "They're doing a training, they have an education program due. How about we set one up here?" 

00:05:07,690 --> 00:05:13,080 [Bob] 

"Yeah. What do you want done?" "Okay, right." So I got actively involved with that and 

00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:17,020 [Bob] 

set up an education program for 

00:05:18,740 --> 00:05:24,220 [Bob] 

junior wardens and senior wardens in preparation for their journey to the chair. Looking at your lodge 

00:05:25,260 --> 00:05:32,020 [Bob] 

in year two, second year, as the senior warden, preparation for the chair and leadership and management. 

00:05:32,020 --> 00:05:32,750 [Dan] 

Mm. Good. 

00:05:32,750 --> 00:05:33,600 [Bob] 

Of course- 

00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:37,780 [Dan] 

Well, that's something we need now, especially for myself who's just been put in 

00:05:37,780 --> 00:05:43,280 [Bob] 

... I've just attended a similar... I've been attending the Zoom session this morning- 

00:05:43,280 --> 00:05:43,860 [Dan] 

Mm 

00:05:43,860 --> 00:05:57,760 [Bob] 

... and speaking on a similar subject in the Royal Arch. It worked great, but you need somebody to drive it. That's what the issue is. For the three or four years, we had publications, cost the guys 20 bucks. We provided the books. 

00:05:59,140 --> 00:06:04,576 [Bob] 

And we actually had sets of books down here in the libraryIn our Masonic library down below. 

00:06:04,576 --> 00:06:05,196 [Reuben] 

Mm-hmm. 

00:06:05,196 --> 00:06:21,206 [Bob] 

So the course should be established. We want it to be established. Anyhow, as part of one of the first sections, first feedback from the course was, "How about you do... We need a speaking course because we don't know how to speak." Yeah, okay. So we developed a speaking course. 

00:06:21,206 --> 00:06:21,696 [Reuben] 

Mm. 

00:06:21,696 --> 00:06:29,456 [Bob] 

Speaking course called Speaking on Your Feet. And it was designed over two sessions, and anyone could attend. 

00:06:30,516 --> 00:06:32,016 [Bob] 

I just produced all the material, 

00:06:33,236 --> 00:06:34,835 [Bob] 

all the paperwork and what have you. 

00:06:34,836 --> 00:06:35,556 [Reuben] 

Mm. 

00:06:35,556 --> 00:06:39,076 [Bob] 

And that was really, for me, that was really stunning. 

00:06:39,076 --> 00:06:39,296 [Reuben] 

Mm. 

00:06:39,296 --> 00:06:41,436 [Dan] 

Did it turn out to be quite popular with- 

00:06:41,436 --> 00:06:42,076 [Bob] 

Oh, yeah. We 

00:06:43,096 --> 00:06:50,916 [Bob] 

go out of town to do the training sessions. We regularly, at Wangaratta, we did trainings at Wangaratta, 

00:06:51,996 --> 00:06:59,156 [Bob] 

Kyneton. In Rawene, we started the first course, did one on Rawene, and we'd spend the weekend there. We'd do a Saturday and a Sunday. 

00:07:00,176 --> 00:07:02,416 [Bob] 

So you could get both sessions in. 

00:07:02,416 --> 00:07:02,616 [Reuben] 

Mm. 

00:07:02,616 --> 00:07:06,326 [Bob] 

So you could do junior wardens one day and then the senior warden- 

00:07:06,326 --> 00:07:06,326 [Reuben] 

Senior 

00:07:06,326 --> 00:07:10,376 [Bob] 

... the next day. So you got a lodge that had done both modules. 

00:07:10,376 --> 00:07:10,996 [Reuben] 

Right. 

00:07:10,996 --> 00:07:11,856 [Bob] 

And it worked great. 

00:07:13,916 --> 00:07:19,916 [Bob] 

I had a little plan of what do I want to do. What was I going to do for the centennial year? 

00:07:21,496 --> 00:07:25,556 [Bob] 

Have a project, because really you need to have a project for anything you do. 

00:07:26,616 --> 00:07:27,156 [Bob] 

Otherwise, 

00:07:28,276 --> 00:07:32,256 [Bob] 

my attitude is if you don't have a plan, you can't change anything- 

00:07:32,256 --> 00:07:32,376 [Reuben] 

Mm 

00:07:32,376 --> 00:07:33,956 [Bob] 

... and nobody knows where you're going. 

00:07:33,956 --> 00:07:34,096 [Reuben] 

Yep. 

00:07:35,796 --> 00:07:39,216 [Bob] 

So you've got to plan whatever you want. Tyler- 

00:07:39,216 --> 00:07:39,556 [Reuben] 

Mm-hmm 

00:07:39,556 --> 00:07:40,576 [Bob] 

... is a master mason. 

00:07:43,516 --> 00:07:51,856 [Bob] 

The next year, I was junior deacon. The next year, I was senior warden. And the next year, I was master. 

00:07:53,076 --> 00:07:53,376 [Dan] 

Wow. 

00:07:54,796 --> 00:07:59,516 [Reuben] 

There's a few- There's a few hop, skips and jumps there, Bob. 

00:07:59,516 --> 00:08:00,256 [Bob] 

Yeah. 

00:08:00,256 --> 00:08:01,456 [Reuben] 

Do you care to tell- 

00:08:01,456 --> 00:08:02,306 [Bob] 

Well, a real pain in the butt 

00:08:02,306 --> 00:08:05,436 [Dan] 

From outside the door straight to junior deacon. 

00:08:05,436 --> 00:08:05,476 [Bob] 

Yeah. 

00:08:05,476 --> 00:08:08,296 [Reuben] 

How did you feel about that? 

00:08:08,296 --> 00:08:08,716 [Bob] 

Well, 

00:08:10,996 --> 00:08:11,676 [Bob] 

no problem. 

00:08:11,676 --> 00:08:14,156 [Dan] 

Yeah. Bob just gets on with it, doesn't he? 

00:08:14,156 --> 00:08:18,526 [Reuben] 

I suppose you have to, wouldn't you? So whose idea was that? It wasn't your idea or was it? 

00:08:18,526 --> 00:08:19,756 [Bob] 

Oh, no. The lodge was struggling. 

00:08:22,076 --> 00:08:54,146 [Plug] 

We hope you're enjoying the conversation. Listener support helps us cover the costs of producing each episode and allows us to give back to the community we all share. Every contribution, big or small, helps us keep the conversation alive and growing. If there is a topic you would like to see discussed, drop us an email at themasonicmic357@gmail.com, or simply send us a message via the Send Us a Text link attached to every episode. Now, back to the conversation. 

00:08:57,476 --> 00:09:00,416 [Dan] 

Tell me a bit about Masters and Past Masters. 

00:09:00,416 --> 00:09:08,976 [Bob] 

With a number of 130, it's a really early lodge, and the objective of any of the research lodges- 

00:09:08,976 --> 00:09:09,076 [Dan] 

Mm 

00:09:09,076 --> 00:09:11,636 [Bob] 

... is to provide information to the brethren. 

00:09:11,636 --> 00:09:12,496 [Dan] 

Mm-hmm. 

00:09:12,496 --> 00:09:28,756 [Bob] 

And its success, I would call it, is being able to communicate the story to the troops. Regrettably, like all Freemasonry, times have changed. 

00:09:28,756 --> 00:09:28,956 [Dan] 

Mm. 

00:09:30,276 --> 00:09:32,996 [Bob] 

People struggle to read books. 

00:09:32,996 --> 00:09:33,056 [Dan] 

Mm. 

00:09:33,056 --> 00:09:34,996 [Bob] 

It's all electronic today. 

00:09:34,996 --> 00:09:35,836 [Dan] 

Mm. 

00:09:37,076 --> 00:09:38,576 [Bob] 

People are time-strapped. 

00:09:38,576 --> 00:09:38,996 [Dan] 

Mm-hmm. 

00:09:38,996 --> 00:09:39,586 [Reuben] 

Yeah. 

00:09:39,586 --> 00:09:47,636 [Bob] 

A lot less. Freemasonry is a leisure time activity, and our individual leisure time is 

00:09:48,816 --> 00:09:49,316 [Bob] 

really 

00:09:50,496 --> 00:09:55,246 [Bob] 

short. Certainly, for the young guys who are married and working- 

00:09:55,246 --> 00:09:55,556 [Reuben] 

Mm 

00:09:55,556 --> 00:09:58,216 [Bob] 

... to save for a house or have a house. 

00:09:58,216 --> 00:09:59,416 [Reuben] 

Mm. Mm-hmm. 

00:09:59,416 --> 00:10:10,756 [Bob] 

The bosses are no longer as tolerant as they used to be with respect to social activity that keeps the community ticking over. The technical subjects that 

00:10:11,836 --> 00:10:13,676 [Bob] 

we are involved with 

00:10:14,736 --> 00:10:30,236 [Bob] 

at Masters and Past Masters Lodge don't seem to be getting to the area that you would expect some interest in. Now, on a lot of occasions in Freemasonry, I see is, "What do you want? What do you want to know?" They haven't thought about that. 

00:10:30,236 --> 00:10:30,816 [Reuben] 

Mm. 

00:10:30,816 --> 00:10:37,636 [Bob] 

So somebody comes up with an idea and presents the information. They're not encouraged to think about what Freemasonry is. 

00:10:37,636 --> 00:10:38,796 [Reuben] 

Mm-hmm. 

00:10:38,796 --> 00:10:42,206 [Bob] 

And Freemasonry is not the ritual. 

00:10:42,206 --> 00:10:42,216 [Reuben] 

Yes. 

00:10:42,216 --> 00:10:54,936 [Bob] 

It's a system of morality, veiled in allegory, and illustrated by symbols. And it's the allegory that people don't really fully understand. 

00:10:55,976 --> 00:10:56,136 [Dan] 

Something- 

00:10:56,136 --> 00:10:58,016 [Bob] 

They know the ritual- 

00:10:58,016 --> 00:10:58,556 [Dan] 

Yeah 

00:10:58,556 --> 00:11:04,396 [Bob] 

... but they don't know the allegory. They know the ritual, but they don't know the story. 

00:11:04,396 --> 00:11:09,696 [Dan] 

Yeah. What is there out there for the new mason after the third degree? After he's been raised. 

00:11:09,696 --> 00:11:10,336 [Bob] 

Okay. 

00:11:10,336 --> 00:11:10,896 [Dan] 

Mm. 

00:11:10,896 --> 00:11:14,516 [Bob] 

Let's look at Freemasonry as a book. 

00:11:14,516 --> 00:11:14,936 [Dan] 

Okay. 

00:11:14,936 --> 00:11:15,956 [Reuben] 

Okay. 

00:11:17,076 --> 00:11:18,656 [Bob] 

Global Freemasonry is a book- 

00:11:18,656 --> 00:11:19,096 [Reuben] 

Mm-hmm 

00:11:19,096 --> 00:11:23,096 [Bob] 

... of many chapters. You read the first three chapters- 

00:11:23,096 --> 00:11:24,056 [Reuben] 

Mm-hmm 

00:11:24,056 --> 00:11:27,215 [Bob] 

... Entered Apprentice, Fellowcraft, Master Mason. 

00:11:27,216 --> 00:11:28,816 [Reuben] 

That's it. Job done. 

00:11:28,816 --> 00:11:29,035 [Dan] 

If it- 

00:11:29,036 --> 00:11:30,156 [Reuben] 

Wait for the movie 

00:11:30,156 --> 00:11:30,516 [Bob] 

What about the other chapters? 

00:11:30,516 --> 00:11:31,616 [Reuben] 

Wait for the movie. 

00:11:32,276 --> 00:11:34,236 [Bob] 

What about the other chapters? 

00:11:34,236 --> 00:11:34,436 [Reuben] 

Wow. 

00:11:34,436 --> 00:11:35,576 [Dan] 

Exactly, yeah. 

00:11:37,776 --> 00:11:39,796 [Bob] 

Are you going to finish reading the book? 

00:11:39,796 --> 00:11:40,496 [Dan] 

Of course you are. 

00:11:40,496 --> 00:11:43,236 [Reuben] 

Wow. Is there- 

00:11:43,236 --> 00:11:48,336 [Bob] 

And did you find something of interest in those first three chapters that would make you want to read the book any further? 

00:11:48,336 --> 00:11:55,356 [Reuben] 

Personally, I felt there was a big chunk of book left, so there must be more to it. 

00:11:55,356 --> 00:11:57,216 [Bob] 

How about that? How about that? 

00:11:57,216 --> 00:11:57,436 [Dan] 

Mm-hmm. 

00:11:58,616 --> 00:11:59,416 [Bob] 

Don't forget, 

00:12:00,636 --> 00:12:04,576 [Bob] 

Freemasonry is a leisure time activity. 

00:12:04,576 --> 00:12:04,976 [Dan] 

Mm-hmm 

00:12:06,504 --> 00:12:07,604 [Reuben] 

It is 

00:12:07,604 --> 00:12:22,784 [Bob] 

And the global structure of Freemasonry will not survive if the lodges don't survive. So you have to concentrate on the first three chapters to make the rest of it to work. 

00:12:24,004 --> 00:12:25,364 [Bob] 

If you look at the structure 

00:12:27,484 --> 00:12:35,044 [Bob] 

of the lodge, the way it was set up, where the wardens were originally overseers- 

00:12:35,104 --> 00:12:35,684 [Reuben] 

Yes 

00:12:35,684 --> 00:12:41,764 [Bob] 

... on different sites because the master of the lodge is in head office- 

00:12:41,764 --> 00:12:42,004 [Reuben] 

Yep 

00:12:42,004 --> 00:12:47,084 [Bob] 

... and somebody's working in the quarries and somebody's working in the 

00:12:48,244 --> 00:12:49,124 [Bob] 

trees in Lebanon. 

00:12:50,644 --> 00:12:52,604 [Bob] 

So they were at separate locations, so 

00:12:53,704 --> 00:12:58,724 [Bob] 

they didn't actually know what was going on, because that's what the jobs of the deacons was- 

00:12:58,724 --> 00:12:59,004 [Reuben] 

Mm-hmm 

00:12:59,004 --> 00:13:01,684 [Bob] 

... was to communicate that information. 

00:13:01,684 --> 00:13:01,944 [Reuben] 

Yeah. 

00:13:03,584 --> 00:13:08,624 [Dan] 

So you're alluding to the Mark degree a little bit there as well. 

00:13:08,624 --> 00:13:09,264 [Bob] 

Yeah. 

00:13:09,264 --> 00:13:12,824 [Dan] 

Yeah, which is, we've spoken to Graham a little bit about before. 

00:13:12,824 --> 00:13:12,844 [Bob] 

Yeah. 

00:13:12,844 --> 00:13:15,674 [Dan] 

That's your, I guess you'd say- 

00:13:15,674 --> 00:13:15,674 [Bob] 

Yeah 

00:13:15,674 --> 00:13:16,834 [Dan] 

... your fourth degree. 

00:13:16,834 --> 00:13:16,844 [Bob] 

Mm-hmm. 

00:13:16,844 --> 00:13:18,454 [Dan] 

That's the fourth chapter in your- 

00:13:18,454 --> 00:13:18,604 [Bob] 

Yeah 

00:13:18,604 --> 00:13:19,144 [Dan] 

... Masonic book. 

00:13:19,144 --> 00:13:19,264 [Bob] 

Yeah. 

00:13:20,904 --> 00:13:23,344 [Dan] 

And then he spoke a little bit about the Excellent- 

00:13:23,344 --> 00:13:23,464 [Bob] 

Mm-hmm 

00:13:23,464 --> 00:13:24,744 [Dan] 

... and the Royal Arch itself. 

00:13:24,744 --> 00:13:25,664 [Bob] 

Yep. 

00:13:25,664 --> 00:13:26,964 [Dan] 

What else have you got there? 

00:13:26,964 --> 00:13:27,104 [Bob] 

What else have I got? 

00:13:27,104 --> 00:13:28,664 [Dan] 

What other chapters? 

00:13:28,664 --> 00:13:37,124 [Bob] 

Do you know that as part of the Royal Arch, a very important portion of it is Cryptic Masonry? 

00:13:37,124 --> 00:13:39,604 [Dan] 

Right. Something I know nothing about. 

00:13:40,924 --> 00:13:40,984 [Bob] 

Yeah, and- 

00:13:40,984 --> 00:13:43,424 [Reuben] 

That's because it's so cryptic. You haven't figured it out. 

00:13:43,424 --> 00:13:45,264 [Dan] 

That's right. Maybe I should know. 

00:13:45,264 --> 00:13:46,344 [Bob] 

And- 

00:13:46,344 --> 00:13:46,744 [Reuben] 

Different cryptic 

00:13:46,744 --> 00:13:55,644 [Bob] 

... and the real issue is that the time frames, they're at different periods of time, and it doesn't make sense. 

00:13:55,644 --> 00:13:55,824 [Reuben] 

Yeah. 

00:13:57,564 --> 00:14:51,304 [Bob] 

But what'll happen is the Cryptic degree will join all the dots. To sum up, with respect to the third degree, and you'll find at the end of it, if you do the long closing in the third degree, "Worshipful Master, deign to receive from me the substitute secrets of a master mason." In a Craft degree, the word is lost, because you've got a substitute degree. In the Royal Arch degree, it's recovered. In the Cryptic degrees, we learn how and why it was deposited, and the place of where it was recovered in the Royal Arch degree. In the Cryptic degrees, though conferred subsequently to the Royal Arch, relates to an earlier period in time. They explain what is missing and fill the gap in our knowledge between the loss of the word in the third degree and its recovery in Royal Arch. 

00:14:51,304 --> 00:14:51,313 [Reuben] 

Royal Arch. 

00:14:51,313 --> 00:14:51,404 [Dan] 

Royal Arch. 

00:14:51,404 --> 00:14:54,044 [Bob] 

That's why the Cryptic degree joins the dots. 

00:14:55,324 --> 00:14:56,144 [Dan] 

Uh-huh. 

00:14:56,144 --> 00:16:38,804 [Bob] 

I fought joining Cryptic Masonry for ages. They go, "Oh, join the Cryptic. Don't join the 

00:18:11,584 --> 00:18:12,824 [Dan] 

No, but in New Zealand we do 

00:18:12,824 --> 00:18:14,944 [Bob] 

Oh, yes, the New Zealand Constitution does 

00:18:14,944 --> 00:18:14,984 [Dan] 

But the Lodge- 

00:18:14,984 --> 00:18:16,764 [Bob] 

Yes. But it's a separate Lodge. 

00:18:17,824 --> 00:18:18,824 [Bob] 

If you go to 

00:18:19,884 --> 00:18:28,064 [Bob] 

Melbourne, for example, the Mark degree is a separate order, not rolled into the Royal Arch. Two years ago, 

00:18:29,784 --> 00:18:35,704 [Bob] 

we had a brother come over from Australia to do the Excellent degree because they don't do it over there. 

00:18:35,704 --> 00:18:39,324 [Dan] 

We had the same in ours, and he's English. 

00:18:39,324 --> 00:19:35,204 [Bob] 

Yeah. We've got the Order of the Secret Monitor, or the Brotherhood of David and Jonathan, the Royal Arch Chapter, Mark Master's Lodge, Excellent Master's Lodge, and a Royal Arch Chapter. Then we have the Royal Arch of Scotland, which is Mark Master, Excellent Master, and Royal Arch, the same as the New Zealand Constitution. Then we have the Red Cross of Constantine, which is the Masonic and Military Order of the Red Cross of Constantine, and the appendant orders of the Holy Sepulchre of St. John and the Evangelist. We have the Royal Order of Scotland. We have the Royal and Select Masters, which is our Cryptic Council. And we've got the SRIA, Societas Rosicrucian in Anglia. Now, there is also SRIS, which is Scotland. 

00:19:35,204 --> 00:19:47,304 [Reuben] 

So is this still relevant, then? Are we finding that the Freemasonry of old, is that still relevant for the youth of today? 

00:19:47,304 --> 00:19:49,884 [Bob] 

In a secular society? Yep. 

00:19:49,884 --> 00:19:51,334 [Reuben] 

What can we do to make it relevant? 

00:19:51,334 --> 00:19:52,644 [Bob] 

So how do we market that? 

00:19:52,644 --> 00:19:53,424 [Reuben] 

Mm. 

00:19:53,424 --> 00:19:55,764 [Bob] 

I was asked that question this morning. 

00:19:55,764 --> 00:19:57,024 [Dan] 

Mm. What'd you say? 

00:19:57,024 --> 00:20:02,364 [Bob] 

How are we marketing that? I didn't answer it because I don't have an answer for it. 

00:20:02,364 --> 00:20:02,864 [Reuben] 

Fair enough. 

00:20:04,384 --> 00:20:08,084 [Bob] 

You will never get a solution unless you get buy-in from the troops. 

00:20:08,084 --> 00:20:12,684 [Dan] 

Yeah, exactly. You might have a great idea, but you need the buy-in. 

00:20:12,684 --> 00:20:14,484 [Bob] 

Yeah, you need to have the buy-in. 

00:20:14,484 --> 00:20:15,024 [Dan] 

Mm-hmm. 

00:20:15,024 --> 00:20:17,044 [Bob] 

And what's the problem today? 

00:20:18,304 --> 00:20:20,123 [Bob] 

Too many old buggers in the chair. 

00:20:21,304 --> 00:20:27,644 [Bob] 

Deuce, going back in the chair as the Master does not solve the problem. You need- 

00:20:27,644 --> 00:20:27,834 [Dan] 

I think- 

00:20:27,834 --> 00:20:31,044 [Bob] 

... to have the change to get the change. 

00:20:31,044 --> 00:20:34,144 [Dan] 

Yes, but the mentorship needs to be there as well. 

00:20:34,144 --> 00:20:35,044 [Bob] 

Oh, that's right, yeah. 

00:20:35,044 --> 00:20:38,144 [Dan] 

The reason I mention that is someone had said 

00:20:39,284 --> 00:20:55,924 [Dan] 

our young fellas need to step on up, and then there's a bit of talk about going through the ranks too quickly and taking on too much, which is all very true. We don't want to be rushed through, and there's a reason for that, is we don't have the knowledge that you guys do. So therefore, we need the mentorship. 

00:20:55,924 --> 00:20:56,704 [Bob] 

Yep. 

00:20:56,704 --> 00:21:01,223 [Dan] 

It's what you said earlier. We need to reflect on the degree as well as the position we're in. 

00:21:01,224 --> 00:21:07,344 [Bob] 

The current booklets that are handed out today to handed apprentices and what have you- 

00:21:07,344 --> 00:21:07,764 [Dan] 

Mm-hmm 

00:21:07,764 --> 00:21:10,284 [Bob] 

... I started off in Lodge Lord Brighton. 

00:21:10,284 --> 00:21:12,424 [Dan] 

Mm-hmm. You started that off? 

00:21:12,424 --> 00:21:12,604 [Bob] 

Yeah. 

00:21:12,604 --> 00:21:13,684 [Dan] 

Oh, did you? 

00:21:13,684 --> 00:21:30,344 [Bob] 

Mm-hmm. And that in conjunction with my mother lodge in Auckland, Melbourne Albion. I started off at Brighton, and then I fired it off to my mate up there who was involved with the leadership, well, who had been involved with leadership. "Oh, shit, can we do this up here?" "Of course, you can." 

00:21:31,384 --> 00:21:36,924 [Bob] 

I'm open government. I don't do anything for me. I do it for- 

00:21:36,924 --> 00:21:36,954 [Dan] 

Everyone 

00:21:36,954 --> 00:21:40,204 [Bob] 

... because I like to, and I'll give it all away. 

00:21:40,204 --> 00:21:40,824 [Dan] 

Mm. 

00:21:40,824 --> 00:21:42,264 [Bob] 

Effectively, that's what I've done. 

00:21:42,264 --> 00:21:43,424 [Dan] 

Mm-hmm. 

00:21:43,424 --> 00:21:45,584 [Bob] 

And what the books now, 

00:21:46,844 --> 00:22:00,044 [Bob] 

the concept has changed from what I would've done because it was part of a structure where when the guy got the book, he also got a mentor. 

00:22:00,044 --> 00:22:00,824 [Dan] 

Yeah. 

00:22:00,824 --> 00:22:03,204 [Bob] 

He also got somebody to come alongside him- 

00:22:03,204 --> 00:22:03,864 [Dan] 

Mm-hmm 

00:22:03,864 --> 00:22:04,864 [Bob] 

... to talk him through it. 

00:22:04,864 --> 00:22:05,484 [Dan] 

Mm-hmm. 

00:22:05,484 --> 00:22:08,864 [Bob] 

And there were things that you were meant to coach them in. 

00:22:08,864 --> 00:22:09,724 [Dan] 

Mm-hmm. 

00:22:09,724 --> 00:22:14,624 [Bob] 

Where it was about the ritual, but also coach them in activities within the lodge. 

00:22:15,804 --> 00:22:21,704 [Dan] 

Do you think that mentorship should begin prior to becoming a candidate? 

00:22:21,704 --> 00:22:22,624 [Bob] 

Most of us- 

00:22:22,624 --> 00:22:22,764 [Dan] 

Mm 

00:22:23,864 --> 00:22:26,844 [Bob] 

... who join, who became members of Freemasonry, joined. 

00:22:26,844 --> 00:22:27,584 [Dan] 

Mm. 

00:22:27,584 --> 00:22:34,903 [Bob] 

Stop using that word. You never join Freemasonry because of the ceremony that we've undertaken- 

00:22:34,904 --> 00:22:35,144 [Dan] 

Mm-hmm 

00:22:35,144 --> 00:22:37,164 [Bob] 

... as initiation. 

00:22:38,644 --> 00:22:40,134 [Bob] 

You understand? 

00:22:40,134 --> 00:22:42,454 [Dan] 

There's a difference between joining and initiating 

00:22:42,454 --> 00:22:44,144 [Bob] 

Joining and initiation process. 

00:22:44,144 --> 00:22:46,944 [Dan] 

Yep. Hence, you're either in or out. 

00:22:46,944 --> 00:22:51,124 [Bob] 

What happened was when you took your obligation, you said something that you 

00:22:52,664 --> 00:22:54,964 [Bob] 

were to abide by the rules and all the other stuff. 

00:22:56,084 --> 00:23:03,744 [Bob] 

And it doesn't matter what happens in your life later on. At that time, those things were important to you, 

00:23:05,044 --> 00:23:07,384 [Bob] 

and they are part of you. 

00:23:07,384 --> 00:23:07,724 [Dan] 

Mm. 

00:23:09,364 --> 00:23:38,844 [Bob] 

You always keep them. You can't devolve your responsibility for them. I went to Auckland last year to get my 50-year badge. They all turned up, and there's shit. They had fancy gear on. And my answer to them was, "The reason I've turned up like this, my Master Mason's apron on, this is the highest rank that the lodge can confer on anyone." After Grand Lodge disappears, there will still be lodges. 

00:23:38,844 --> 00:23:39,774 [Dan] 

That's a very good point. 

00:23:40,064 --> 00:23:41,064 [Reuben] 

Very good point. 

00:23:41,064 --> 00:23:41,504 [Dan] 

We'll leave it on that. 

00:23:41,504 --> 00:23:42,744 [Reuben] 

When is that going to happen? 

00:23:42,744 --> 00:23:43,824 [Bob] 

Huh? 

00:23:43,824 --> 00:24:08,284 [Plug] 

Thanks for listening to The Masonic Mic. The views expressed by our hosts and guests are their own, and don't necessarily reflect those of Grand Lodge or any affiliated body. Before you go, be sure to download the Masonica app to stay connected and support the show. For more Masonic resources, blogs, and podcasts, remember to subscribe, like, and share. And until next time, stay square.