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The Masonic Mic
Building Bridges Across Cultures - W Bro. Arvind Masilamani
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What happens when ancient traditions meet modern challenges? Worshipful Brother Arvind Masilamani takes us on a fascinating journey spanning continents and cultures, revealing how Freemasonry bridges worlds while staying true to its core values.
Growing up in Chennai, India, eight-year-old Arvind first glimpsed Freemasonry through his father's monthly ritual of donning formal attire before disappearing to mysterious meetings. This childhood curiosity would eventually lead him to join the craft after relocating to New Zealand in the 1980s, where he discovered both similarities and striking differences between Masonic practices across hemispheres.
Arvind's unique perspective, shaped by growing up in India's rich cultural tapestry with its 546 languages and diverse religious traditions, offers profound insights into Freemasonry's principle of tolerance. "You tend to learn to become very tolerant," he explains, describing how this multicultural upbringing prepared him perfectly for Masonic life in New Zealand, where he was often the only non-European face in his lodge for many years.
As both a Worshipful Master and Grand Steward, Arvid shares candid observations about the challenges facing modern Freemasonry. While membership in New Zealand has plummeted from 45,000 to under 5,000, lodges in India continue to thrive through stronger social connections and community involvement. His recent decision to join the Canterbury Masonic Charitable Trust reflects his vision for revitalising the craft through meaningful community service that appeals to younger generations seeking purpose beyond ritual.
Throughout our conversation, Arvind weaves together thoughtful reflections on cultural identity, organisational adaptation, and the delicate balance between preserving tradition and embracing change. His story reminds us that Freemasonry's greatest strength may lie in its ability to unite diverse individuals through shared values while respecting their differences.
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Reuben:Welcome to the Masonic Mic where we explore unique life stories through the lens of Freemasons. Today we are honoured to be joined by a very special guest and a very close friend of mine, worshipful brother Arvid.
Arvind :Maslamani.
Reuben:Maslamani, I nailed it. My apologies. He's a very good friend of mine and I have not mastered your last name.
Arvind :I'm very sorry for that. Certainly have this time around.
Reuben:I have this time around, and thank you so much for joining us. It's a pleasure to have you here, and I see that you're a worshipful master.
Dan:Yes.
Reuben:And that means also, I should say, that you're on the Grand Lodge.
Arvind :Yes, I am, as a Grand Steward, wow, yep.
Reuben:So, Arvind, thank you for joining us, my pleasure. So you're a Freemason? Yes, as we all are. Would you like to talk to us a little bit about how you became a Freemason those early days and what inspired you?
Arvind :Okay, my first sort of introduction to Freemasonry was watching my dad. I must have been, I'm going to say, about eight or nine years old. We rushed him from work one day, you know, and he said everyone out, I really need to focus and get organized. And we had no idea what was going on, so we scuttled out of the dining area, he shot into his bedroom, had a quick shower, then I heard this mighty crash and we went in and had a look and said is everything all right? And was his aftershave bottle smashed on the floor? He's trying to get ready in such a rush. And then he said no, no, everything's okay. And he went on, put on a dark suit, a black suit, back a little bow tie, and then he rushed out and that was it. So nothing was done and he obviously came back quite late and we were in bed.
Arvind :So the next morning I asked him where did you go? What actually happened? He said oh, I went to a Freemasons meeting. Oh, wow. So he said it straight out. He did say it straight out. Wow, didn't make much sense to me. I said what's that about? And he said it's something. My father was a member and I've always wanted to become a member, so I've joined the Freemasons. Oh, I said, is that a sort of Indian cultural thing? I had no idea what he was talking about. I'll just take you back one step. I've been in New Zealand close to 40 years. Prior to that, I grew up in India, in a place called Madras, which is now called Chennai, in the southern part of India. So when I'm talking about this particular incident, I'm talking about Chennai or India, my days back, when I was eight years old, eight or nine years old.
Reuben:Right, so for our listeners, just in case you couldn't understand, there is a slight accent and my mispronunciation or my unapprentice of your name is because you're from.
Dexter:India.
Reuben:Correct, so you're an Indian Kiwi? Yes, exactly.
Arvind :Okay, sorry. So a third of my life in India and two thirds, at this point in time, in New Zealand, wow, yep. So I had no idea what he's talking about. He said no. He said it's a sort of English Freemasonic society of men, generally only men, and you've got to be a fine, upstanding individual. So I did look at him and say are you one? Yes, so he said yes, my father was a member, and in those days I don't think they had an indian constitution as yet right so we're looking at the late 60s, early 70s.
Arvind :So the lodge that he joined was an english lodge called the archibald campbell lodge archibald campbell yes, and it's still an english constitution, even though it's run under the sort of indian umbrella, so to speak. It's like like a view, like an english lodge here. So there was a bit of change recently, but it's still essentially the sort of Indian umbrella, so to speak. It's like an English lodge here.
Reuben:So there was a bit of change recently, but it's still essentially the same thing, same thing.
Arvind :So he joined that lodge and so that was my first sort of introduction or hearing about the Freemasons. But being an eight or nine-year-old you know it goes over your head and then you just forget about it. But every month I used to see him dress up and carry a bag and he'd go off to these meetings. So that was pretty much it. And so when I came to New Zealand in the sort of mid-80s you know, I really never knew much about the lodge thing because I used to see my father head off but never really asked him too much about it. He said in my teenage years, like most teenagers, you're hanging out with friends, you're doing your own thing.
Reuben:You're doing teenage things.
Arvind :Yeah, do your teenage things and you say, oh, that's what Dad does once a month sort of thing, or maybe even more than once a month. But as you get to older teenage years you know he's taking a bottle of scotch with him every time he goes to this meeting.
Dan:So there must be a bit of fun going on somewhere going on somewhere.
Arvind :So yeah, so that was pretty much it. So, coming to New Zealand, obviously went to university here, didn't really know much about Freemasonry, never got involved till the sort of early 90s where a good friend of mine, michael McDonald he's a wishful brother as well, he wasn't a member of the Lodge but he's a lawyer worked for a. He wasn't a member of the lodge but he worked for he's a lawyer work for a law firm and I was starting up businesses and doing things in those years in the early 90s. So I needed a lawyer and he said, hey, I'd work part-time for this law firm uh, called ra fraser, maybe roger could be your lawyer, sort of thing. So I turned, turned up and Roger did become a lawyer and we used to go out for lunches because he had an office in town and catch up and he said, oh, do you know anything about Freemasonry? And I said very little, recounting the story that I said about my dad and my dad's name.
Arvind :He said oh, looks like you've got a little bit of family history. Would you like to join the lodge here? I said, yeah, let me think about it. In those days we didn't have mobile phones or Facebook, but you'd ring your dad once a week and it was always in a hurry and people were yelling on the phone because we couldn't hear because of the distances. But anyway, I said to my dad hey, I'm looking at joining the lodge. He said, oh, that would be fantastic if you did. Yeah, yep. So I said, okay, I'll join it. And I said my lawyer was a worshipful master and he's asked me to join this lodge here in Christchurch in Sumner. And he said love you to do it.
Arvind :So that's what I did and I joined the lodge with Roger Fraser.
Reuben:Right, so can I back up, though you said that you lived in India and then you came to New. Zealand. Can I ask why you moved to New Zealand?
Arvind :Okay, now back in the 80s in India, it was quite boring because India's a socialist country, a big socialist democracy, so to keep jobs for the locals, they never imported technology or didn't really want technology. As a result, for someone like me that liked technology and engineering, it was a bit boring.
Reuben:Right, okay.
Arvind :My father was in engineering. He studied in Germany.
Arvind :He did his master's in Germany back in the 50s and he had a big engineering firm making radiators for cars in India and every time they had to bring in technology he had to pay 350% duties. Wow, as a result, india was quite stifled, because I can see what the government, what they were trying to do was trying to keep jobs and keep the technology low and keep the human factor of work quite high. A lot of my friends went to the US. That was a big destination, a big drawcard, especially if you did well educationally, and I did reasonably well. So most of my friends went there. But I had no interest in going to the US.
Reuben:Right.
Arvind :Too capitalistic for me, nothing wrong with it, but just for me. Yeah, that's a personal opinion. I Too capitalistic for me, nothing wrong with it, but just for me. It's a personal opinion. I'd been to Europe because, like I said, my father studied in Germany and we had a lot of friends there. So I went to Europe Again. Didn't do much for me or the UK, but I liked the lifestyle of Australia and New Zealand, yep, yep, and I thought, hmm, they play cricket.
Dexter:Looks sunny and warm.
Arvind :That was my perception. I should have checked the weather things back then we didn't have internet.
Reuben:I think that's North Island. Yes, I know.
Arvind :I thought it's sunny. I've come to either Australia or New Zealand. So I applied to the universities here. Yep and New Zealand came up first, so I took New Zealand. However, a really strange thing happened during my travels in India.
Arvind :I was travelling in India a couple of years prior to coming to New Zealand, and in the southern part of India India is like a triangle. In the very southern part it meets on three oceans, which is the Bay of Bengal, the Indian Ocean and the Arabian Sea, so you've got three. So spiritually it's very significant and there are temples there which allow the sun's rays to come in at different angles, and it's a very spiritual place and it's a good place for diving. There's a lot of free diving down there, so I used to do a little bit of swimming and a little bit of diving. So I went there, but not compared to the locals, but anyway, I just used to travel there on my motorbike and while sitting outside one of these temples there was a guy you know reading cards and telling you a fortune, like a fortune teller.
Arvind :For lack of a better word, but he was a religious guy. I was getting bored in the afternoon so I was why not? So I sat with this guy and he read my future, I guess for an hour or so. And then he said you know, you'll be going overseas in the next few years. And I thought maybe that's an easy guess for him because I had a motorbike and a few certain things I thought he'd know. Slightly higher socioeconomic class, perhaps the chances of you going overseas are reasonably high, so not a biggie.
Reuben:Yeah.
Arvind :And I was at that age where some of the guys were doing well at university he could have taken that guest and gone.
Reuben:Sure.
Arvind :Yeah. I said oh yeah, and then he says I said do you know where? He said so he pulled out a sort of map sort of thing and started drawing things.
Arvind :and he said he pointed to the bottom right-hand side of a map which is Australia, new Zealand. You know, if you look at a traditional map and I thought that was very odd. He said you'll be going to this part of the world like the islands of New Zealand, australia, and I thought very odd because very few people knew about Australia, new Zealand back then, especially for education.
Reuben:Few people would know about it for cricket because the cricket team is visiting, and so on but not really the pinnacle choice for education.
Arvind :No, no and it wasn't my choice back then.
Dan:Right.
Arvind :You know, and then I'd been to Europe after that and I thought, no, that's not me. And that's when I decided this part of the world and I thought that was a really unusual sort of prediction for someone to make like that. You know, it's out of left field.
Reuben:Well, it stayed in your mind, so it must have made an impact somehow or other.
Arvind :Yeah, it did, it did.
Reuben:Well, we're glad that you did, we're very glad that you did so. You joined, so you came over and then you got introduced to Freemasonry Correct, and so, if we could link your father, how was that conversation when you said hey, that conversation when you said, hey, dad, I've joined, or did he get involved in your membership?
Arvind :He didn't get involved in the membership being so far away, but when he made the next trip here he visited the lodge, obviously at Sumner loved it. My mother loved it as well, because he did a Robbie Burns night.
Reuben:Oh, yes, and the late.
Arvind :Roger Fraser was very, very good at doing the Robbie Burns thing.
Reuben:So for our listeners and for other Masonic members who Like this guy and this guy who possibly don't understand exactly what that means, what does it mean when you say Robbie Burns night?
Arvind :Robbie Burns night is a Scottish thing. So, even though we're not a Scottish lodge is when they do an ode to the haggis. So they bring the haggis in and a bottle of scotch and you've got to do yes, it's piped in with the bagpipes. So it's quite a ceremonial thing and the ode is done in the Scottish sort of Gaelic language. But it's not reading Robbie Burns poems. You're not reading it. You've got to recite it.
Reuben:Oh really.
Arvind :It's just incredible. You hear someone doing it well, like Roger used to. There are a few other people who do it well. Yeah, it's really out of this world. It's really worthwhile going to. Yeah, it was one of the few nights where it's not traditionally lodged, so partners are allowed. Oh really, yes, it is.
Reuben:Okay, I didn't know that.
Arvind :So it's a function thing.
Reuben:Right yeah.
Arvind :Yeah, my dad. He was a member of the Robbie Burns.
Reuben:Lodge. Yes, they would have done that as well. Yes, I don't know much about it. He was from Scottish descent, so that's that. So your dad came over and it was a Robbie Burns evening. Yes, it is so that would have blown his mind as well. Would he have ever seen that?
Arvind :He's been one in England, but my mother had never seen one, right.
Reuben:And even at 89 and a half she still remembers and talks about it. 89 and a half I love that. Years old, sorry is what I mean. Now that's okay.
Arvind :So that's going back nearly 30 years, 25, 26 years ago, and she still remembers it.
Dan:Wow, well, that's great.
Arvind :Made a huge impression because Roger did such a good job and she loved just to rephrase or go back a bit. She's an English professor, so her expertise in Shakespeare and Robbie, but she's done a lot of that stuff, english literature.
Reuben:So when she heard that, that was something for her. That would have been out of the world. She would have loved that.
Arvind :She did, she loved it.
Reuben:Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful. And so your father was blown away. He was very proud. He would have been very, very proud, Very very proud, have been very, very proud.
Arvind :he tried to get my older brother, who lives in england, into the lodge and my brother got to, maybe fellow craft, I don't even think he made master mason gave up, which disappointed my dad a bit because the lodge was a big part of his life I understand, but it's also not for everyone, and I think you've got to, you've got to join to know and and if it's, it's just not for everyone.
Reuben:Yeah, um, but that would be. I mean, at least one of you know at least your insides.
Arvind :So when I used to go back to it on holidays, we'd practice a ritual together. He's a great ritualist, my father much better than I was or am.
Reuben:I've seen your ritual and I don't think you're bad at all.
Arvind :No, no, he was good he knew the bit back to front and in fact when he retired from work, a lot of the lodge members from his lodge or the other lodges would come to our home and practice ritual with him, because he used to teach them ritual. He had the time and he'd say come on over, Wow.
Reuben:Yeah, that's brilliant. So how different is the New Zealand Freemasonry to the Freemasonry in India? I guess language one, but maybe not, I don't know. Is it different and what is different about it?
Arvind :Not much of a difference, because our ritual book is pretty close to the English ritual. Of course, yeah, you're right, that's okay.
Reuben:That might be your dad now. He's heard you on the Masonic mic. He wants to listen.
Arvind :I thought I turned it off. Sorry, that's okay. Yeah, coming back to it, it's very, very similar ritual-wise.
Reuben:Yeah, no, you're on. I'm going to check my phone now.
Arvind :Yeah, very similar. Ritual-wise there's not much difference. All the lodges, at least the English ones, are in English.
Reuben:Well, they would be.
Arvind :yeah, that's right, and so are the Indian lodges as well. Indian constitutions are all in English, the difference being the volume of the sacred law can be the Bhagavad Gita. Yes, yes or the Koran, because a lot of Muslims who live in India as well, obviously the Bible, or, if you're Buddhist, you bring whatever in a book. See, they're quite open to that. But otherwise a ritual is very, very similar and the dress code is exactly the same, even though it's 38 degrees in summer you still have to wear a dark suit.
Reuben:Yes, I was going to ask, so I know when I was in Perth they had, because it was such a hot country, they would have the white. Yes and no such breaking in there.
Arvind :No, no such thing, oh gosh, because it's a British colony, so things sort of, you know, just get very similar to what the British did, I guess, back in the day.
Dan:We spoke to the Worshipful Master of Progress last time and they were talking about the. Is it the barong that they wear.
Dexter:Yes, correct.
Dan:It's a very lightweight, almost see-through thing which obviously doesn't port over too well to New Zealand.
Arvind :No, no, no. But I wish they did something like that in southern India in particular, because it does get quite warm in summer, but unfortunately, you know, people do wear suits.
Reuben:So how has your cultural background influenced your perspective and involvement within the craft?
Arvind :Culturally growing up in a place like India. India, especially if you lived in the cities, it's very cosmopolitan in terms of India is a big country. So when people talk about India they think everyone's just you're Indian, but you're not really in the sense, and I'll explain that. What I mean by that it's like saying you're, what does that?
Dan:mean.
Arvind :Are you from Northern Europe, which is quite different? You know Norwegian or Dutch or Northern German, right through to Mediterranean or going down further. So everything's different. People look a little bit different. The food's different, the culture's different, everything is different.
Reuben:Of course, of course. So it's a melting pot.
Arvind :It is a melting pot. So, growing up in a city, the major cities in India, it's pretty much a melting pot where people come from different parts of India, because the commerce are usually done in cities and the city that I grew up in, chennai, madras, has been a city that's known for its universities, so all the top medical schools and engineering schools are sort of from there Right. As a result, even when India opened up its borders, all the big engineering firms, the car firms, all of them IT firms have got big offices there because that is a hub. So even prior to that. So it's a melting pot, so you'd get a lot of people from northern India, middle part of India, middle part of India and other parts of southern India. Madras is what's known as Tamil Nadu, so people speak Tamil as the original language there.
Reuben:Okay, okay.
Arvind :So the common link is English. So the Indian currency note is in 14 different languages.
Reuben:Sorry, say that again.
Arvind :The Indian currency. Every note that you get is in 14 different languages Gosh.
Reuben:Wow, that's like a page you've got to read. This tells you what it is.
Arvind :Wow, okay, because there's 546 languages and dialects in India.
Reuben:Oh, is that all Exactly? So you could put that all in a note. So it narrowed it down to 14 instead of 500. Wow, see, could put that all in a note. So it narrowed it down to 14 instead of 500. Wow.
Arvind :So when you grow up in a city, you're going to find people that speak different languages. Yeah, of course, culture's different Diet is definitely different. Some are vegetarian, some are not. Some are North Indian vegetarian, some are South. The food's totally different.
Dan:Wow.
Arvind :So you've got to be very tolerant. In addition, you're going to have good friends who are in my family are Christian, but you're going to have Protestants be Anglican, but you're going to find Catholics or other denominations right through mainly Hindus, because 80% of the population are Hindu, Sure Muslims. So you're going to get a huge melting pot of people in any city. So you tend to learn to become very tolerant.
Dan:Well, there's that word Reuben.
Reuben:Yeah, that's one of my favourite lessons, I think if you listen to my last podcast that we summarised For me at this stage, freemasonry has really taught me to be tolerant. I mean, we don't have, and I have not yet seen a diverse volumes of the sacred law. I've only seen a couple. But I imagine, like you say, you've got every single type of religious faith and they'll all be on there, and so that really does mean that you have to be aware of others and yourself.
Arvind :Well, you do Just simple things. Like a refractory, you've got to make sure that you cater for a variety of diets, right yeah. Because the northern Indians, and even from different states, because the language is so different, the accents are different. So your hearing or listening not so much hearing but your listening ability you've got to be more focused in your listening because the accents vary so much in the same room with the same group of Indians. So that's what I mean when you say Indian.
Reuben:It's just not one, not just one.
Arvind :There are some regional, like they roll the R's in Southland. So there's some regional differences here but not a hell of a lot compared to over there is what I'm saying. So very different, and if people haven't studied in a city, their English may not be that good and they may have a very strong accent, which is difficult to follow, so you've got to really listen. Yeah, so you learn a lot of things.
Reuben:Growing up in a sort of diverse multicultural city, and so would that have helped you with your Freemasonic career. Would you say yes?
Arvind :absolutely Yep, yep, yep. So when I first came to New Zealand, right. I guess Christchurch was very monocultural. I'm talking about the mid-80s. Yep, yep, mainly white, especially Christchurch, I must say, especially Christchurch to the point at which I've been asked at least three times by different Maori people to join the Maori party because I was the only branga walking around. Sorry.
Reuben:I'm not laughing, but it's comical. It is comical and I wish.
Dan:I'd said yes, but I couldn't speak the language. Just kidding.
Arvind :It's being inappropriate there. But yes, no, but a very monocultural. So when I joined the Samna Lodge, I was the only brown face for at least 10, maybe 15 years. It's only very recently, with a lot more Filipino brethren, that there's a lot more diversity so to speak, and in the North Island, or even mainly in the North not so much here where I've seen perhaps brethren from the African continent.
Reuben:Oh, yes, yes, yes, that's actually an interesting point, because we are in Aotearoa and I don't know if there is actually a specific Te Rero Māori lodge.
Arvind :No, there isn't, and in fact I was talking to someone yesterday. He's English, so it was quite diverse. Yesterday's meeting Just to go back one step, last night was the first Tuesday's lodges in Canterbury, meaning lodges that meet on the first Tuesday of the month.
Arvind :We meet once a year and have a common meeting, usually in August. And last night was in Ashburton and the other two lodges are in Christchurch. So the other two lodges will be the meetings will be held in Christchurch, like our lodge is hosting next month. But in terms of diversity, many people from the Philippines, obviously me born in India, a few English people, a few Australians born in Australia, so it was quite a diverse bunch. One person from Asia, so when I say Asia from China, so it was quite a diverse bunch. If you looked around the room and I was talking to Nick, who is English, and he told me maybe we should run a whole lodge meeting to Rio. We've never done that.
Reuben:It wouldn't be a silly thing, considering that we are in New Zealand.
Arvind :We are and I thought, hmm, that really would make a lot of sense If we could manage it. I'd love to do it.
Reuben:We could welcome the comments on that. Anyways, I think that would be something that we could. I think one of my close friends and I also discussed this years and years ago we were in the North Island with it and we still sort of noticed the same type of gent. Yes, you know, it was your older whiter fella, which is fine, but it was noticeable and we sort of wondered where are all the brothers? Yes, yes, but yeah. And so Freemasonry in India. Essentially the same thing.
Arvind :Essentially the same thing, yeah, the only difference being real estate is more expensive, at least in the cities. So, for example, in a lodge in Madras or Chennai, it's a big homestead which has three temples, it's huge and it's got three refractories as well. So when you finish the workings of the lodge, you go on the refractory and because it's big enough and they've got so many members, it's fully catered for. So you pay for your dinner in advance and everyone meets there for dinner, and drinks are at cost, so to speak.
Reuben:And so would it be. It's quite active.
Arvind :There's quite a lot of members, Quite a lot of members very popular Right and people tend to socialise afterwards so it's not uncommon that you would get home after midnight so people go after the lodge is closed. They would go to a bar or a pub, socialise further, meet with one another. So there's a lot more social interaction perhaps than here. There's not a criticism of here because I know we have families and we've got work and things the next day.
Reuben:It's just a difference.
Arvind :It's a difference, but people live there and it's warmer, so they tend to go out at night.
Reuben:Yeah, I think I recall my grandad's referring to them coming home late at night, like early in the morning, and I think the Australian brethren it was a similar thing. They would definitely partake in drinks and socialise until the early hours and then come home and I think it's a different world.
Dan:Yes, it is, and I think we're in different times now, different times now.
Reuben:And so it's. You know, I think maybe they had a lot of marriage counselling back then. Yes, they probably needed some, I think, if I was to turn up drunk at about 2 o'clock in the morning once a month where I can't tell my wife where I am and who I'm with, I think we might have problems because if she did the same thing, I'd be definitely asking the same thing.
Reuben:So and I think it's changed for the good. I think we can. Uh, you know, we were trying to be more transparent, and that's the. That's the whole point. Um, and so you? We refer to you as a worshipful master, but you've actually got grand lodge rank. Yes, can you talk me through that? What does that mean?
Arvind :okay, grand lodge effectively oversees the operation of most of the lodges here in New Zealand. So everything comes under the auspices of the Grand Lodge. And with Grand Lodge you've also got District Grand Lodge, because Grand Lodge can't be everywhere at the same time, sort of thing. So once a year, as you know, most lodgers install a mast as he between King Solomon's chair.
Reuben:Yeah, so that's the, he's the chief, he's the boss, he's the one that is the leader of the lodge, that runs the lodge, and so he's put in there once a year Once a year by Grand Lodge.
Arvind :He oversees that to make sure he's the right, the person who's been properly elected, and so on. Okay, so that's what Grand Lodge typically does, and they also oversee any of the bylaws and the laws governing the way a lodge is run. So lodges do have some leeway or independence in terms of ritual and a changing slightly Right, okay, but only within so much reason. If you're going to make any major changes, you need to go to Grand Lodge for approval.
Reuben:And there'd be no real reason for to do changes. I suppose it wouldn't be.
Arvind :Well, different lodges may do things differently, For example at Sumner, when we do, without saying too much, the third degree, we do the alternative third degree. Right so that's very unique to our lodge. Okay, not every lodge does it. But all our third degrees are alternative. We do them to the standard third degree.
Reuben:Right.
Arvind :Okay, Okay. So that's okay, but we have it approved by Grand Lodge. It's again, you know, if you want to do something in the lodge in terms of expenditure, capital expenditure and so on, sometimes Grand Lodge needs approval because they may contribute towards it.
Reuben:Right, so the lodges are autonomous to a degree, but there's certain guidelines that they will have to follow, and that's when Grand Lodge will step in and say yes or no, or what have you?
Arvind :And historically, because of this whole thing of going to Grand Lodge to get approvals on your bylaws or constitution or how you run your particular lodge, because you've got the guideline from Grand Lodge. In the past there have been some conflicts with some lodgers or members within that lodge with Grand Lodge, and you can understand why because people feel we need to do things in a certain way and Grand Lodge may say no, it doesn't fall within our guidelines. This is just normal human behaviour.
Dan:It's just human.
Arvind :It is yeah yeah, and one of the reasons we get into Grand Lodge is to see how they operate and build a better, you know, communication between our lodge in particular, or the lodges in Canterbury and Grand Lodge.
Reuben:Okay, so you're in the Grand Lodge, so what is your role in the Grand Lodge?
Arvind :My role is what's done as a Grand Steward, so effectively the Grand Master. We assist the Grand Master in any of the roles that they do, so, for example, if they're presenting the installed master with their badge or whatever, or their apron, we hand it over. We may do a charge or two, but we're here to assist him to do to go on with him.
Reuben:Oh, that's what you do, okay, yeah, okay, so that's a very important job.
Arvind :So you're basically his assistant, so you're pretty much because a master would have the deacon and the wardens are his assistants or officers for?
Reuben:for a grandmaster it's pretty typically us right, okay, okay, and so you've been in that role now. For how long have you been?
Arvind :Three years. It's a three-year term.
Reuben:And so what are you looking at doing? Are you going to continue that role or what are your future with the Grand Lodge?
Arvind :This October it's every October when they install the Grand Lodge offices and my term comes to an end this year here in Christchurch is when they're having the big communication this October and I'm not taking on a role in Grand Lodge this year. I'm stepping back a bit because at this point I haven't got the time commitment to do anything further in Grand Lodge.
Reuben:So, yeah, just to clarify that, you've got your normal lodge, which is Sumner Humanity. Yes, yes, and you're in the Grand Lodge. So that's something on top of your everyday lodge and then you go and do other bits and pieces. So there's the time constraint, so there's a bit more time involved. So you're going to step back from the Grand Lodge. Yes, okay.
Arvind :However, I always feel because I love Freemasonry and I want to give things back as a Freemason to the community at large. So I've joined the Canterbury Charitable Trust, the Freemasons Charitable Trust.
Reuben:Oh, wow, yes, okay.
Arvind :So I just joined that last month and I'll be attending my first meeting this month.
Reuben:Wow, and so you're looking at doing and getting involved in some charitable projects. Yes, have you got any in mind?
Arvind :No, because what happens, the way the charitable trust works, it's a different lodge that's put in application because they themselves may get from their own community. Because, remember, there's about 13 lodges here in the Christchurch area, canterbury area, so they're geographically located in different parts, with the exception now, since we put the Masonic Center, some of them meet here so there could be local community people asking for funds or help, and so they put an application to their own lodge. Their own lodge may not have the funds, so that's when they put an application to the Canterbury Masonic Charities.
Reuben:Right, okay, so what?
Arvind :we do as a committee and that's what I'll be doing from next month is the applications come in a panel of us, the five or six of us review it and when we meet we decide of the five or six, which ones should we fund and how much, to what tune, if that makes sense.
Reuben:Yeah, so that's a really massive thing for the community, and so this would be one of the things that we're trying to let people know about Freemasonry and to sort of pull down those negative connotations that we actually provide the community with a lot of assistance.
Arvind :Right, for example, the Canterbury Charities, masonic Charities Trust. They do the car parking for the netball and collect money. It's a gold coin donation or people buy a season's pass with us, so I think that generates about $30,000 or $40,000 a year.
Dan:Wow.
Arvind :And then we've got money in the bank which generates interest. Over Christmas we go to the shopping malls not all shopping malls, but see the Honby Mall, for example and we do the Christmas wrapping. So we get money from that. And then we give things back, like the Special Olympics, where we may help out.
Reuben:And that's coming up this year in Christchurch.
Arvind :I believe as well. Yes, it is in November.
Reuben:In November Brilliant.
Dan:We're doing trial games at the moment. That's great. I played one the other week, oh did you.
Reuben:It was a lot of fun. How did you?
Dan:go, we lost A lot of fun. They really appreciated it they were very happy.
Arvind :Wonderful. So there's quite a bit of money in the Canterbury Charities Trust. So money's been given, for example, to the Westpac helicopter.
Reuben:Oh, yes, yes, yes.
Arvind :Women's Refuge was a big one for the last few years School lunches. Apart from that, there are much smaller ones, like a few thousand dollars here and there to families that are in trouble.
Reuben:And so if anyone's in ever any need in the community out there that are listening, how would they be able to access or have a look, or how would they be able to know?
Arvind :There is a website for the Canary Masonic Charities Trust. In addition, if they know someone is a lodge member or if there's a lodge, if they can find out, they could approach one of them and apply or ask. Okay, I think the I'll know more about it once I'm in the community. Oh for sure.
Arvind :Yeah, I think the New Zealand Freemasons website has got a little bit on it, but I'm not too sure they do, but that's mainly for the whole overall New Zealand Freemasons charity, which is a little bit separate because that tends to be more for university scholarships.
Reuben:So we also sponsor the university students as well.
Arvind :Yes, we do. You've got to apply and you've got to be a little bit of an outstanding student, I guess, and they give about 30 or 40 scholarships, so to speak, for university, which is over $5,000 or $6,000 a year. It's quite considerable, wow, and it's purely based on merit. Even though we are a male organisation, a men-only organisation, I'd say 70%, or close to 60% to 70% of the scholarships go to women.
Reuben:Is that because women are brainier?
Dan:No, comment you can edit that.
Reuben:Edit that Sorry, that was….
Arvind :No it's purely based on merit. If the woman's application is better, so be it. What I meant is it doesn't discriminate.
Reuben:Right, okay, so it's not just going to males, it's not just going to Freemasons, it's going to females or anyone who is worthy of that assistance. That's brilliant.
Arvind :And in addition to that, I think the national body also provides I'm just going to say well over half a million anyway towards medical research generally to deal with things like heart disease, stomach cancers, alzheimer's, anything to do with perhaps an older person's illness, so to speak, because I don't know why, but that's what it's been historically. So quite a bit of money is spent or provided to these universities or medical schools for research into these areas wow, that's amazing and that's really good for our listeners who didn't know that.
Reuben:That. Uh, you know, there we are trying to do good yes and it's not just uh, it's not just to our fellow brethren that we do this.
Arvind :It's actually for the wider community. Wider community, and that's why you've also got the local. Like the Canterbury one is purely for Canterbury, the one that I'm going to be part of.
Reuben:Right, okay, and so that sounds like an exciting venture. Yes, it is, and so could you tell me what would be? What's your most memorable moment during your Freemasonic journey?
Arvind :There's a couple of them, some positive and some not so positive.
Reuben:Okay, let me reframe that. What was the most positive?
Dan:Because, memories can be good, sure, okay, yeah.
Arvind :I think one of the positive, more exciting ones was when I first became Master at Lodge Sumner.
Arvind :It was quite exciting, you know, going through the different positions within the L lodge and then finally becoming master yeah, very nervous at the time because you had to be the district grand master and they tell you what to do and what you expected to know and blah, blah, blah. You get a bit nervous and, um, I remember I may have cooked for like 48 hours. Give a three-day time frame. My wife helped quite a bit because at the time, like I said, it was very monocultural christ church and I'm talking about even this could have been when I first became master may have been early 2000s.
Arvind :So we decided to put this fabulous indian meal on yum so we did a biryani, which is like a rice dish with meat right, beef and lamb. We had two different dishes and a vegetarian one, um cooked in yogurt and spices oh yum and we had indian love cake as a dessert, which my wife made, and I had a couple of other indian dishes as well and a couple of non-indian dishes, because I knew some people possibly couldn't handle it.
Reuben:So you, bought thece pies.
Arvind :But spent a couple of days on more cooking because I had to cook a huge amount and probably, for my installation, would have had close to 100 people. Wow, it's the largest pack. I wanted to make sure no one went hungry. Sure, it's a very Indian thing to do, because you don't want people to go hungry Of course, yeah, it's wonderful.
Arvind :And obviously bought the obligatory couple of few bottles of scotch as well, which I managed to get on special or travel. So it's a big night really, stares in my mind because it was a lot of effort getting there and very nervous on the night being master for the first time.
Dan:So I think it's fair to say that your wife supports you on your Masonic career through and through.
Arvind :Well, yes. To a large extent, the reason why I say well, yes, is my wife, my mother, they're all very strong feminists, and so are my daughters. But they don't like this whole concept of a male only organization. However, they understand what it's about, right right, I don't tell them the secret. They know what it's about and they love the fact we do charitable work.
Reuben:Yeah.
Arvind :And even though our music teacher told my wife that we're devil worshipers, she just laughed it off.
Dan:She knows, we're not that sort of thing. Thank you, we started. Yes, exactly exactly.
Arvind :So no, they're supportive To a large extent I think the only but then when they sometimes hear the ritual, what happens? They go seriously. No wonder women don't want to join.
Reuben:So I said there is Freemason woman. Freemasonry, though, as well, and I think, again, it's not for everybody, it is.
Arvind :Well, my mother's deciphered she loves cryptic crosswords and deciphered my dad's ritual book ages ago to large extent not all of it, but to a large extent. And my youngest daughter, she's a lawyer, but she always she did theater, so she's she's very good at remembering lines and things and I'm not great, so I used to practice with her, but obviously not the words that are blanked out sadly, she knew the lines better than I did after reading it once and I went what.
Dexter:What.
Reuben:I think my cat knows it off my heart.
Arvind :Yes, I've heard it so many times. So that's the memory, but not so nice memory. Going back again in the 90s, you know, when I first joined the Lodge there were guys like roger, very, very good with their ritual, but many members of grand lodge and senior members who were good, but they were stickless. You couldn't make a mistake. So that made sometimes the environment very stressful because you think, oh gosh, did I forget this? And you get all nervous. If you know what I mean, you're not always relaxed.
Arvind :So those were the not so nice things but, as some of the laws, we tended to become more relaxed later on because we did tell the older members hey, you're preventing young people from coming on board. The future of any organization is it's young people. You know us oldies, we're there and move on. It's really we need to encourage young people. If we make it too stressful for them and I've always remembered the, reminded the older members we are not for profit, we are voluntary. You want to make people want to come there and that's a good point.
Reuben:So, in your opinion, what's the biggest challenges that facing freemasonry then?
Arvind :I think a lot of people are time poor for a variety of reasons so they prioritise what they do. I say it's just not Freemasonry. I say most clubs are losing membership as a result because people like the flexibility. We grew up in a generation where you had to plan and do things. I think modern generation, because of technology, they want things. Now they want to stream and binge watch their TV program, whereas we had to work once a week and wait for the next episode to turn up.
Reuben:It's like watching your VCR. You had to rewind it and you've got to do all that stuff.
Arvind :You don't do that, so things are a little bit different. But to get people into Freemasonry, I believe we've got to look at things like that. What would bring people in? Maybe some of the social aspect, you know, just not ritual alone. We've got to make it in a sense that it's got to be a special organisation. It's got to be just a little bit more than just turning up for a lodge meeting once a month doing a bit of ritual, and that's for something like, you know, doing more for the community.
Arvind :Yep, doing more for the community Yep, and I think that's been missing. I mean, like I said, I've been in New Zealand 40 years and I've found people are doing less and less for the community because either they're too busy and most people don't know their neighbours when I first came here, we'd know our neighbours- oh yeah, I remember growing up and that was the big thing.
Reuben:And now I moved back from up north and I came and I made the effort to have a look at my neighbours and I'm pretty sure they looked at me sideways thinking who's this? Guy I'm like, but you've got to know your neighbours for my daughter's sake. Yeah, you do it's just one of those things.
Arvind :Because I remember, you know, being a student and having a car and everything's conked out and you don't necessarily have all the tools. It would be silly to try to figure it out and some old guy from what do you do? He'd come across and say, oh, you need this. I haven't got the tools for that.
Dexter:Oh, come on over, they'd give you a hand you knew one another.
Arvind :People helped one another out a lot more than nowadays Sure.
Reuben:Why is that? Is that because it's a transient world?
Arvind :I don't know. There's a lot more to do. Because you've got, you know your whole world is now in your living room, Because those days we had two channels on TV and the Good Night.
Reuben:Kiwi would turn up at 10 o'clock in the morning. Yes, showing our vintage, that's right.
Arvind :There was less to do. There weren't that many cafes and restaurants. You know.
Reuben:No, they would all shut at midnight.
Arvind :Yes, and money was tight, so you had to do a lot of the stuff yourself.
Reuben:Yeah, I remember my mother making. She had a sewing room so we had a lot of stuff that was sewn. We had a lot of knitting nannies did knitting and I think it's. We looked at that actually, the wife and I, and it was cheaper for us to go down to Kmart or Warehouse and buy a hat or something rather than getting the yarn of wool and knitting it. Yep, so we definitely have changed.
Arvind :Do you think Freemasonry can survive the change, or does it have to change?
Reuben:It has to change, it has to change.
Arvind :It has to change. It doesn't have to change its core values.
Reuben:Sure.
Arvind :But it certainly has to change amongst its peripheral values and cater for the younger market, because the youth, whether you like it or not, are our future, because that's life, that's nature, you know.
Reuben:That's a gimme.
Dan:And you mentioned members leaving before Now. Is that just the older members or are you saying younger members? Trial and leave?
Arvind :Yes, younger members trial and leave because they come in, because I used to. I'll go back again my background when I did engineering and then I did a master's in business. But I ended up doing a lot of research and had my own research company, mainly market research and talking to people, so that thing never left me, sort of thing. So when younger members in our lodge or other lodges leave, I'd usually talk to them in front of them. What are you really unhappy with?
Arvind :or what could we do better sort of thing, just for feedback. And most of them left because they came and they said, oh, we do a bit of ritual that put pressure on someone for learning lines, for example, and charges. And I said, hey, there's no pressure, you can do it in your own time. But they thought it was expected that they were going to do it and they felt they wanted to be part of something that was doing something for the community.
Arvind :And they didn't see us doing it, they just thought it was all to do with ritual, but we come into a room, sure, we do a ritual, and then we socialize for five minutes afterwards the refractory or whatever, and then people are gone.
Reuben:Yeah yeah.
Arvind :So they wanted more than that and I think what kept Sumner going is a lot of like minded people. We were a group of friends that joined. When I joined we were the older group and then Michael joined after. Even though he worked for Roger, and because we were such good mates, he said you know, john, I better bloody join then. So he did. Then he got a whole lot of his friends. So there was that similar age group people that knew one another. So it was a good time to catch up once a month, in addition to catching up otherwise. So if the older guys want to talk their own stuff, we had our own group, so to speak, and I think that kept it going. And I think some of the young ones coming in they just found it a bit of pressure and they go. What for? They didn't see the community aspect of it.
Arvind :We never went out and did things for people we should Like going and doing. We've got an elderly person in our lodge, for example. We could go out and do their garden for them or help them out to do things. We don't do those things anymore. Those are the sort of things I'd love to encourage and get people going out and doing.
Reuben:Right, well, you heard it here. First, let's get more involved. I think you're right.
Reuben:I think also they do come in with a preconceived idea and that gets shot down pretty quickly and it's there to be seen. But they've got to kind of have the mentor, somebody with them to be able to say hey look, you know, this is how we can do it. Or you know, I remember being young Mason and I was always terrified of well, I guess I was a bit nervous of saying my piece. You know, these are older, distinguished gentlemen. They've been around the trappings and you know they were quite successful in business and all that. And who am I to say you know, maybe we could do this, or I don't know what I'm doing, so you kind of just keep quiet. And I think that they need to be heard.
Reuben:And I think we need to listen to them. Not everything, not every idea they've got is great Like mine. Not all of mine are great. Some of them are even better than great.
Dan:Some, some of them are even better than great. Yeah, exactly Some of them are absolutely terrible.
Reuben:None of them would be bad, but let's give them a bit of a voice, because they are A voice and purpose.
Arvind :So, you know when we talk about maybe the community thing's gone, but look at the student volunteer army after the earthquakes.
Dan:Yes, so what I'm?
Arvind :saying the youth need a purpose is what I'm saying. Most people do need a purpose. They're just not going to turn up for the sake of turning up.
Reuben:Well, you've got to give them that, you've got to give them that purpose. So if you've got to drive them and…. Yeah, and that's what I'm saying.
Arvind :There's so many initiatives we could do with the community that don't cost necessarily money, just a little bit of human effort, yeah.
Reuben:Well, that's actually worth more to give them the recognition rather than the money, although, the money might help but they'd value more being valued and being recognised by their work effort than just oh, here goes a couple more bucks.
Arvind :Well, that's the thing I want to look at with the charities as well. I'm sure they're doing an excellent job. But also look at when we give funding. How is that going to involve the community as well, rather than just giving money or something you know? You don't want to chuck money at a problem, because that's just a yeah right.
Reuben:And so whereabouts do you see yourself in the future with regards to Fair Masonry? Is that really you? You're going to be looking at the charitable side of things, to be able to engage with community?
Arvind :Yes, that's where I really see myself. You know more in the charity, pretty much like what Di Eberle is doing. He's doing a great job. He's the one that organised the car parking.
Arvind :Sure yeah, and I've got a lot of business contacts as well, like him. So perhaps drawing on all of those and seeing where we can get some funding but, more importantly, how we allocate that funding to involve the community. I think New Zealand's got this. It's a great country and great people. We need to get back to those days of building a community I think we're becoming. This is around the world. There's no criticism of New Zealand, necessarily, but around the world people are becoming more insular. They're not doing their neighbours, not doing things for other people. We need to get back to that, because when my kids were young, as a parent, you went into the schools. You did their fundraising, the school fairs, all the sort of things that have become a thing of the past. People aren't helping out or doing things.
Reuben:It's not a community anymore.
Arvind :It's more of like you're saying Well, there is in certain parts, but we'd love to see a lot more of it.
Arvind :And I think it's not a criticism, because people are very busy nowadays and then they've got the whole world in their living room with their social media, television and things, so people get caught up with that. Kids and also the other big change in New Zealand, but I guess it's worldwide is you need two incomes in a household, given the high rents and mortgages, so perhaps that other person isn't at home to help out, you know, with the everyday things. So both people are there after work and it gets stressful and it's difficult. You become time poor is what I'm saying.
Reuben:Time poor and also money poor, because it is actually quite rough out there, and so that's why it would be really good for us to be able to say that we've got funding for anyone that's on hardship, which is a really great thing. So what would be your advice for any young lad who is looking at Freemasonry and looking at joining? What would be your advice to that person?
Arvind :My advice to that person is Freemasonry what it does. It helps an individual grow. It makes you, I believe, more compassionate, more charitable. You get into a group of people who are diverse it's getting more diverse now, both in age group and the way people see things so it gives you a different outlook. It's quite easy in a country with a very small population to be quite insolent, think your way of thinking is the only way or the right way of thinking, is it not?
Dan:No, sadly Sorry, reuben, you're being told.
Arvind :You've been told, so I think it helps a person grow that way. Sure, yeah, because we all come from different backgrounds, it's always good to see.
Reuben:It is good, and it's always good to see the gentleman. Honestly, I would never really see myself sitting down in a room, um, otherwise, and it's, it's, it's just, it's a privilege and you've got to. I've got to remember that different isn't wrong no and we learn from that and as soon as you learn, that's when you realize and that's what the tolerance is.
Reuben:I'm like, hey, I probably wouldn't have sat next to you, but now that I am, let's, I'll get to learn you who you are. Who are you, what? What makes me not want to sit next to you next time? And then you learn more about yourself. So so you're saying that there is no great golden devil that we worship and we get the keys to the city and we're all I the world.
Arvind :I'm still waiting, if there is I know right. I wish it were. No, it's just a great organisation, I think, and it can get better, but we need to look at what we need to do as an organisation Freemasons to get more members in and keep them interested.
Reuben:Do you have any ideas as to how that could?
Arvind :I did have a few ideas and I did bring it up with some of the senior members and they said we're not a Lions Club and I said no, we're not, we're different. But in saying that, we perhaps also need to integrate and look at, because the Lions do a lot of charitable work, but we're different. We're a more traditional organisation with certain values and so on, but we need to integrate where the world is going and that's what people want.
Arvind :They want to be engaged they want a little bit more and for us to say no, we're not going to do that perhaps isn't the best way going forward, in my opinion anyway. I'm a marketer, so I've been in the marketing year in long times.
Reuben:For me, making sure that people are happy and meeting their needs is a very important aspect of Well, at the end of the day, like you were saying, information is key, and if something is working and it's working for that organisation, we could take some cues from that. Correct, that's not to say that we're going to change everything about our organisation.
Arvind :No, no, no.
Reuben:core values have to remain the same Just changing how we can interact and how we can do better is you know I mean. That's why you listen to both sides of the argument isn't it so that you can learn about everything?
Arvind :And, sadly, like most organisations, our membership's dwindling. So that's something. I mean. That's telling us something, isn't it?
Reuben:Is it dwindling in New Zealand or is that a… Hugely New. Zealand.
Arvind :We're down from 45,000 to just under 5,000.
Reuben:So what about in India? Is it getting… Growing, so it's growing.
Arvind :Because of the social aspect.
Reuben:Yeah right.
Arvind :And so a lot of Filipinos join as well because they can get together as a community, meet some people, and all of us should make more effort in meeting our brethren, who may struggle with the language perhaps, so they're not that confident, but we should make that effort of sitting with them, making them feel more welcome. Of course and that's something that all of us do we're more comfortable with people that we can communicate better with. Maybe we should be put out of our comfort zone and then welcome more people wonderful, wonderful look.
Reuben:I've really enjoyed our chat today. Um, I thank you very, very much for agreeing to come on and being, uh, I think, second or third victim I mean guest on board. Um, my pleasure, that's good and all the best with your future endeavours, and I think so you're saying in October is when you'll be stepping back and you'll be looking at doing more of a charitable.
Arvind :Charitable but also helping like that's what I was talking earlier to the other very worthwhile master in terms of taking over the role of, you know, with regalia, things that he's done for a long time and he's getting on an edge. So he wanted someone else to do it and I've got the system at work. So for me, with a little bit of effort, I can help out, because people need to get their regalia and so on. For Grand Lodge Yep, some of the admin boring admin stuff.
Reuben:Good. So you're at the helm of all of that, and so look forward for the Masonic future, and I'm glad that we had this chat. Thank you very much. Thank you very much for coming on board.
Reuben:Thank you for coming on. I'd just like to conclude our podcast with a couple of Masonic alerts. If you're not aware, that's where I get all of my juicy information from the great Masonic app. Just need to go online, have a look at Masonica and you'll be able to access the app. And so I'm just going to tell you, folk, what, at the moment, some of the alerts that are on there. The first one is the Masonic name badge correct logos for the Grand Lodge of New Zealand. For the new rowers that Brethren are being appointed into, it is important that the correct Grand Lodge of New Zealand logo is used, and so the authorised logo is the square and compass without the G in it. So if you've got a G in it, maybe you want to relook that, because that's not the official New Zealand Grand Lodge logo. There are some trusted providers, which is Elite Designs, masonica and the Masonic Exchange, so please check out your logos for the Grand Lodge of New Zealand without the G.
Reuben:There's also, I think in our podcast earlier on we were talking about university. There is actually the University Lodge of Wellington, number 487. Constitution Dedication and installation will be on Saturday, the 16th of August in 2025. And installation will be on Saturday, the 16th of August in 2025. It's a unique Masonic event occurring on Saturday, the 16th of August, at the Wellington Masonic Centre in Wellesley Boutique Hotel, and it's an initiative from the Grand Lodge Membership and Growth Committee the first university lodge in New Zealand and it will be constituted and dedicated the University Lodge of Wellington number 478. Will be followed by the installation of the Foundation Master and Investiture of its offices.
Reuben:If you go on Masonica, you can have a look at the program for that. There is also the Lewis pin, which is still available for purchase. That's the son of a Freemason and a Freemason may wear this lapel pin. It's a Lewis pin, which basically means that you were the son of a man who was, so your father was a Mason. They cost $10 plus postage and packaging, and you can get that if you have a look on the Masonica app.
Reuben:And, of course, the registrations are still open for the Grand Installation, the Grand Communication 2025, which is being held in Christchurch. So don't miss out and don't forget to put your partner's details there as well. In Christchurch. So don't miss out and don't forget to put your partner's details there as well. And we have also, at the end of this year, the National Summer Games for the Special Olympics New Zealand. So they're still wanting lots of volunteers. So, if you can get your lodge behind you or go on individually, have a look at the Masonica app, have a look through there, or go onto the Grand Lodge of New Zealand app website and, yeah, have a look on there and volunteer your time. It'll be a great event. And all these things are happening in Christchurch, so, yeah, that's the latest events.
Dexter:Thanks for listening to the Masonic Mike. The views expressed by our hosts and guests are their own and don't necessarily reflect those of Grand Lodge or any affiliated body. Before you go, be sure to download the Masonica app to stay connected and support the show. For more Masonic resources, blogs and podcasts, remember to subscribe, like and share and until next time, stay square.
