Speaker 1: 0:19

Thank you to you. By Masonica, connecting Freemasons. Masonica is the essential app for New Zealand Freemasons, bringing the craft together in one digital space. Stay connected with the latest news, updates, events and more, right at your fingertips. Download Masonica today and join the growing network of brethren across New Zealand. And now, welcome to the Masonic Mic, where we tune into the frequency of Freemasonry, sharing insights, stories and conversations that illuminate the craft.

Speaker 2: 0:51

Welcome to the Masonic Mic Masonic Frequency on Frequency. I'm Dan Painter and I'm here with Reuben.

Speaker 3: 0:57

Greetings, dan. How have you been? I'm very good. How are you? Excellent, I'm good thanks.

Speaker 2: 1:01

We've got a very special episode today because today we have a guest, very worshipful brother, graham Martin. He's a past grand lecturer and he is also a right, excellent companion for the Royal Arch.

Speaker 4: 1:16

That's correct, dan, that's very correct, but the title's, you know, I'd like to just be called Graham, thank you. Okay, for the purposes of this podcast, we'll like to just be called Graham, thank you.

Speaker 2: 1:26

Okay, for the purposes of this podcast, we'll call you just Graham. That's it.

Speaker 4: 1:29

Great.

Speaker 2: 1:30

So what brings you to Freemasonry? This is the big story that we ask most people when they arrive on our podcast. Give us a story.

Speaker 4: 1:41

Well, I think it goes back a long way. It goes back to my grandfather and my relationship with my grandfather, who was a Mason, and also so was my father, and so consequently, I sort of derived a sort of good impression about Freemasonry, basically because I had such a wonderful relationship with my father and to a certain extent a bit of a distant relationship, but still respectful of my grandfather. And I said to myself one day I said you know, these guys seem to be pretty good blokes, pretty good, you know, they've been part of my life over the last 20 or 30 years. At the time and I thought I wonder what it is that actually makes them what they are. And of course, the common theme that comes through they were both Freemasons and that sort of set me on a path.

Speaker 4: 2:33

And it wasn't until after my father died, which was unfortunate but quite early, and I decided well, let's follow through what Freemasonry is about. And I made a few contacts with the local Freemasons out of where I live and they first of all thought it was rather unusual. Somebody out of the public had gone to the library and looked up a phone number and taken that phone number and rung them and said, well, look, I'm interested in joining. It wasn't them inviting me, I actually invited myself.

Speaker 3: 3:10

And just for the listeners who are listening, who are not of the same vintage you picked up that he said phone book. Yeah, so we're talking a few digits in the past. There aren't we?

Speaker 4: 3:17

Yeah we are Actually we're talking 1991. So that was really when I took my time to actually follow through and when I said phone book, in some ways it's the library, the local library provided me with the information, the contact phone number. So in actual fact the phone number was actually a library. Phone book was a library.

Speaker 3: 3:40

Yeah, sure, but it's not like the traditional. Oh, I just went on Facebook and went on the internet, so we're talking a different traditional. Oh, I just went on Facebook and went on the internet, so we're talking a different era, a completely different era, Different era.

Speaker 2: 3:47

So you needed to do some research in order to make that first Masonic step.

Speaker 4: 3:55

Yes, well, funnily enough, I'd inherited a lot of material from my father and my grandfather, yep, wow. Well, my grandfather had been a grand lecturer, like I was, and he had left a lot of material behind which I inherited.

Speaker 3: 4:11

So in actual fact, I knew quite a bit about Masonry.

Speaker 4: 4:12

Was there a few of those secrets in there you'd already known Well you see, that leads into another explanation, but there's nothing I read that I couldn't. Well, I would have felt that it was quite okay for anybody in the public to read. It was about his life, his beliefs, his moral standards, his view about life and his view about his fellow mankind. So I read most of this material and I thought blimey, that's good, that's good, that's good, that's me. And so is this in New Zealand?

Speaker 3: 4:47

Yes, it's New. Zealand.

Speaker 4: 4:48

Right.

Speaker 3: 4:49

Okay, and the South Island? Or are we talking of the North Island?

Speaker 4: 4:53

Well, my grandfather was out of Dunedin, and myself and my father of course. Well, we're in Christchurch, Right.

Speaker 1: 5:03

Okay.

Speaker 4: 5:05

So, anyway, that kind of material. Once you read it, you start realising just exactly what the message is about Masonry. What is the message? Oh, the message really to me, anyway, is to learn about yourself, your values, what makes you up, what your history is. Take a look at that and ask yourself can I do better?

Speaker 4: 5:30

Yeah, and that really motivated me to join Masonry, because I felt that at that stage in my life I had learned a lot of stuff at school. I'd learned a lot of stuff in business, I'd had a career path. What was missing, however, was the sort of feeling of connection with other people at a same level as myself. When I say level, I'm talking the same understanding of myself about what the values were that were important in life. And Freemasonry started to connect with me because I suddenly saw how I could actually establish my own standards, my own feeling about what was my duty and what my own future was. And it's not about delegating it or being told what to do by someone else. It's about your own personal standards, your own reflection, your own thoughts about things, and it takes time for that to develop. It's not going to happen overnight, and I do see a lot of masons today join Freemasonry for a number of reasons, but haven't yet found out that masonry is about self-improvement. It's about reviewing yourself. It's about trying to make yourself a better person.

Speaker 2: 6:57

So would you say that Freemasonry helps you to focus or hone in on your own established set of values?

Speaker 3: 7:00

Yeah, and to build on, give you the building blocks to be able to then use those to become a better person.

Speaker 4: 7:07

It's funny enough, in the early days of my career, I used to teach a thing called business ethics. Such a thing, hang on. Is there such a thing as business ethics?

Speaker 1: 7:17

I think there is. I think there is I think there is.

Speaker 4: 7:20

I think it is that you have to live with yourself and, in the end, whatever actions you take and you have to live with yourself and in the end, whatever actions you take, you have to ask yourself were those actions right?

Speaker 4: 7:31

And one of the factors that I used to use as a judge as to whether your behaviour, one's behaviour, is ethical or moral was basically to say to yourself is there a respected person in your life, Is there a person that you have that you said, wow, that person I admire. Now, often it's your father or mother, Often it's your grandfather or grandmother, or often it's some other person that you may have come into contact with during your life. My attitude would be if I was to look at my own behaviour, my own decisions, my own way of life, my own values, and I would say to that person this is what I did and this is what I stand for, would that person be proud of me?

Speaker 2: 8:18

Right.

Speaker 4: 8:19

Would that person actually say bang on, mate, you're right, and I suppose that has driven me for the last 20 or 30 years. And would I be proud to say to my father, yes, I did this or I did that. Or my grandfather? And the answer is I think at this moment in my life I would be proud. I'm not arrogant. I'm not going to say that I'm always right. I make mistakes. However, we all make mistakes. It's a matter of living with your mistakes and not making that mistake a second time. Yep, yep.

Speaker 3: 8:55

Well said, yes. And so what about for those who don't have that immediate family?

Speaker 4: 9:03

Ah, that's a good point. Well, you can substitute so-called brotherhood, so-called people who you meet in life that have got that little bit extra. There's something about them. It's usually service for others. Masonry is a hard thing. It's not something to be taken lightly when you take up masonry. It's not going to be a smooth path. It's not going to be something easily achieved. It's going to be done in stages and you're going to get awarded stages of advancement and that's called an entered apprentice or a fellow craft or a master mason, and each one of those achievements is usually marked by receiving an accolade. When I say an accolade, I don't mean clapping. What I mean by that is you receive a handshake when everybody knows that it's supposed to be a handshake. You know the Freemasons have gone. Yeah, there's many handshakes. I know 18 of them. 18?. I know 18 of them, 18?.

Speaker 3: 10:06

I know 18 of them. You're still using your hand, or what's going on there. Oh wow, You're a handyman.

Speaker 2: 10:12

Which one do you use, or do you use them all at once?

Speaker 4: 10:14

It's more than just your palm, of your hand of course. We don't get up to anything silly or whatever, but the point about what I'm getting at is that handshake and we also give them what they call a word that those two things together mark your progress as you go through masonry. And you're not going to get that progress recognition until you've done the work.

Speaker 3: 10:41

Right, so you've got to put the work in.

Speaker 2: 10:42

You've got to put the work in.

Speaker 4: 10:43

And if you get it the easy path, somebody comes up and says to you you want to know what it's all about. Well, I can tell you and I can show you, I can tell you everything You're not going to get it.

Speaker 1: 10:53

That's cheating.

Speaker 4: 10:56

It's this easy way. It's the path that I didn't take and I don't think I'd recommend it to anyone, because in the end, you need to be awarded progress. And, of course, in the old days, Masons of what they call operative Masons these are the ones that actually built cathedrals with a chisel, a mallet and a number of other tools. These real Masons didn't, or couldn't often, read or write, and so, consequently, they were given a handshake and they were given a word, and that set their pay rate, that set their seniority, that set their learning. And as you learn through Masonry, you're given this recognition, a new handshake and a new word to recognise your increasing knowledge, your increasing flow of information that you've been given and the realisation that you don't know everything. We are all here to learn. Learning never stops the day you stop learning.

Speaker 4: 11:58

well, you just don't know what you don't know and you get left behind. So Masonry is about continuous learning, and that's what I've found and I've enjoyed it immensely.

Speaker 2: 12:12

That's something we're trying to achieve on this very podcast is by speaking to gentlemen like yourself, we're trying to learn something different. We know that everyone has different perspectives and different ideas, and that that's what we want to learn from, of course, of course.

Speaker 3: 12:30

So can we go back to the beginning of that story, where you were talking about your very beginnings?

Speaker 1: 12:37

Right.

Speaker 3: 12:38

So your father and grandfather inspired you because of how you looked at them, how you viewed them. So what happened? Can I? You joined a large. When you went to the library you got the contact and then you said, g'day, I want to join. I was like who on heck is this.

Speaker 4: 12:59

Well, first of all, I had to wait a year.

Speaker 3: 13:01

So you made contact, made contact, yes, and then took me through that process.

Speaker 4: 13:06

Yeah, well, I made contact with, you know, with the secretary of the particular lodge and I said, yes, I would like to join. And of course, at that stage he said well, have you got some people that you know, you know, that you already know are Masons? And I said, well, yes, I did, my father, but unfortunately he's died. But there are other people out there that know me, and because in those days they were particularly careful to make sure that people were not, shall we say, undesirable meaning they had in some ways disgraced themselves or in the situation that they wouldn't make good members and so they were all vetted and I had to wait for a year because, as I said, nobody knew me that well.

Speaker 4: 13:54

And after that year was up and people spoke in my favour, I was admitted to Freemasonry and I went through my first degree and after the night of my first degree, I have to admit there's so much information that you're given, so much feeling put into it. It's about sincerity, it's about promise. We use the word fidelity and it's an interesting word. That word means that you do what you say you're going to do, you follow it through. You don't just mouth off words or say things, you actually mean them, and I think when I went through that first night when I was initiated as a new member of the lodge, there was so much that you get and it took so long for me to find out exactly what it meant. Have you found out? I found out, to my satisfaction, but remember, it's probably being a bit selfish here. It's all about my satisfaction. It's about other people's satisfaction as well, and so, yes, if you were to ask that question on a selfish basis, I think I found a little bit of a clue as to what it's about. It's taken a long time. It's taken a long time and a lot of consultation and a lot of reading, a lot of work, and I've formed, in my view, what it's about for me.

Speaker 4: 15:21

Now I wouldn't say that I would prescribe that on anyone else. I'm just saying it's helped me, and it's helped me in times when things weren't easy. It's helped me to get resilient. It's helped me to be mindful of the fact that others need to be considered. When, in your actions you take, you have to think about other people as well. We are family orientated. I have to consider the amount of time that I spend doing what I'm doing, but so do other people. They don't have to be Masons to do that. All I'm saying is that Masonry to me reinforces the need to be family oriented first and then selfish to yourself second. And that's my viewpoint, and I've enjoyed my Masonic career so far and I look forward to many years to come.

Speaker 3: 16:13

Do you reckon that there'd be anything out there like Freemasonry then?

Speaker 4: 16:18

I think remember I started off at the very beginning by saying Masonry is hard, mm-hmm. Right, I said that Masonry is a constant challenge. Now, I don't want to decry other organisations, sure, but I'm not sure that the same challenge would be present if I was to join some of the other organisations. Yes, there's a social challenge. Yes, there's a financial challenge. I'm sure there are other challenges that I don't know about. All I know is when I joined Freemasonry, I found that the challenge was there. It gave me something that I had to work on constantly. You don't sit back and watch all the time. Why do Freemasons last 50, 60, 70 years?

Speaker 1: 17:07

as a Mason, that's a lot of time.

Speaker 3: 17:09

Why do they do that?

Speaker 4: 17:10

And the answer, I believe, is because of the challenge. And if it was a bit simpler, a bit easier to become a Freemason, a bit easier to remain committed to Freemasonry, I think we'd lose a lot. So, therefore, what my job is, as part of a past Grand Lecturer, was to basically try and explain my view, which I'm doing today, on what Freemasonry is, and it's just so much that, unfortunately, if I was to keep, I would keep you here for the next three or four hours maybe, and then only be a little drip in the bucket.

Speaker 4: 17:49

So maybe you've got another more important question that you want to ask.

Speaker 2: 17:53

Oh, not really, but you did mention before that you knew 18 different handshakes and masonry is hard in organisations.

Speaker 4: 18:05

Yeah, it's hard remembering them. Oh, okay, you pull out the wrong one at the wrong time.

Speaker 2: 18:11

What I'm alluding to is side orders and things like that. Now I did mention at the start that you are a right, excellent companion, but we're just calling you Graham today. That's good. Just Graham, can you talk about the Royal Arch? This is the first time we've discussed it on this podcast.

Speaker 4: 18:28

Well, the Royal Arch is an extension of the craft degrees. The craft degrees are the blue degrees, or what you would call classic Freemasonry blue degrees or what you would call classic Freemasonry.

Speaker 4: 18:38

It's the fourth through to the sixth level of the degrees in Freemasonry. It's a path that in New Zealand that is a wee bit different to some of the other places in the world, for example the UK. In New Zealand we have six degrees and they are all together collectively called the chapter. However, the fourth degree in Freemasonry is what they call the mark degree, and the mark degree is really understanding that you are responsible for your actions and we have in Masonry the concept of your Mason's's mark.

Speaker 4: 19:19

Now if you look in the old cathedrals of the UK and I'm sure around the continent, you will find that the stones have on them a mark that identified who made that stone, who actually created that stone, and that mark is distinctive to that mason and he got paid because he made that particular stone. So as soon as he put that mark on his stone he was saying this is my standard, this is my understanding of what's needed and this is my part in the foundation for this cathedral. But here's the but around his mark was always an equilateral triangle and that equilateral triangle signified that his supervisor, his boss on the site, actually agreed that this was up to standard. It was part of the design, it was part of the cathedral, in the right place at the right time.

Speaker 3: 20:19

So that would have been the boss's stamp of approval.

Speaker 4: 20:21

It's his stamp of approval Right, yep, yep. You are responsible for your own actions. Everything inside of that, inside of that, your mark represents what you believe is important in life?

Speaker 3: 20:33

Yeah, right, okay.

Speaker 4: 20:34

So, anyway, the mark degree is about this concept of establishing responsibility, being not only of yourself, but also being responsible for others. In a way, you're not taking over other people, you are just holding them to a standard, and that's what the Mark Masonry is about. Now, this Mark Masonry came out of the earlier degree. Remember I mentioned the word fellow craft? Yep, well, mark Masonry was the second half of the fellow craft degree, and so it was taken away from the fellow craft degree and made a separate degree by itself. Why is that? Well, it's very long, I mean you can imagine putting the two degrees together. By the time you work that you're probably talking some hours oh it'd be Sunday.

Speaker 3: 21:22

So you start on Friday and you'd be out on.

Speaker 4: 21:24

Sunday yeah, so it was a pretty long. They're both long well, not long degrees, but we'll put them together. They'd be too long, right? And also, remember, we're mixing concepts here. One is about education, which is the fellow craft. The second part is about being responsible for what you know and what you do, and that's why you get awarded your Mason's mark. No other Mason can have your mark.

Speaker 2: 21:49

So you get given a mark.

Speaker 4: 21:51

Yes, Well, you choose a mark and then it is entered in a register and you might say that if you wanted a particular mark, you could actually say I want that, as long as that mark is not being used by any other Mason you're fine, that's fine, that's cool.

Speaker 3: 22:11

So going back to the builders and their marks on the cathedrals and buildings, was there a register for them?

Speaker 4: 22:19

Yes, oh, there is Every lodge. I mean, there are?

Speaker 3: 22:23

Historically.

Speaker 4: 22:24

yeah, historically you can actually view them.

Speaker 3: 22:26

Oh, wow.

Speaker 4: 22:27

I've got heaps of books with Mason's marks in them. Wow, they weren't just necessarily their initials. Okay, they could be, but they didn't. You know, there's a formula and it could be that you had to have more. I'm just trying to remember. I think you have to have more than three lines and you can't have a triangle.

Speaker 2: 22:54

Okay.

Speaker 4: 22:55

Everything else is okay except a triangle.

Speaker 3: 22:59

You can't be your boss. You can't be your. Be your boss. You can't be your own boss.

Speaker 4: 23:02

So I think it's the minimum of three, but I would have to check that. But they have to be odd numbers. Now, please don't ask me why odd numbers.

Speaker 4: 23:12

You can have three, five, seven, nine, that sort of thing, but not even numbers. Wow, it was a custom that was adopted by Masons for some reason. They could travel anywhere, anywhere on continental Europe or Britain or Ireland, and their mark would be registered at the local lodge and then, once it was registered there, they would prove their own status. They would prove their own status, they would prove that they were a master mason or a phallograph or whatever, and they would be paid accordingly Right On completion, or is this during On completion of each stone, of each stone?

Speaker 4: 23:50

Well, they had to have the triangle around it before they were paid.

Speaker 3: 23:53

Of course. So you've got to say that wall there has got to be completed. I'm not going to give you anything until that wall I Of course.

Speaker 4: 23:58

So you've got to say that wall there has got to be completed. I'm not going to give you anything until that wall. I'll give you the design. Here are the dimensions of the stone, here's the shape of the stone and here is the well, the dimensions I've already mentioned, but here is the general feel of where this particular stone is going. So there was a plan for each course or layer of stones in a building and each layer, each stone, was distinctive.

Speaker 3: 24:21

So are you saying that each stone has got a mark on it? Well, hang on. So each part of, I guess, each part of that plan for that mason would have had each stone done, and so each mason would have done. So if we've got to do the east wall or whatever, yeah sure Then. So that's.

Speaker 4: 24:39

In the olden days. Now I'm going to be a wee bit sort of revealing, and yet I'm going to hold back a bit. In the olden days we're talking, you know, 12th century, 11th century, 12th century, 13th century, later, maybe even 14th. Each mason that worked on a worksite would habitually put their mark on a stone. So, when people go to repair those particular buildings, you will see never facing the public, it was always facing inwards. The mark was always facing inwards.

Speaker 4: 25:15

So you never actually not often revealed, but often was just a blank stone. You saw a stone, but behind it, of course it's a mark or underneath it. Today, if you go to some of the cathedrals of Europe and I can list off a whole lot of them, but I mean you will find Mason's Marks there.

Speaker 3: 25:32

So I've done that. I've travelled around Europe a few times and I was that guy who was looking in when I first started. I was sort of looking in certain spots.

Speaker 2: 25:39

So hang on. If most of the marks did, I miss something. If most of the marks are facing inwards, how would you find the mark?

Speaker 3: 25:46

Well, you would have had to either been part of the building.

Speaker 4: 25:48

Yeah well, sometimes they faced outwards.

Speaker 2: 25:50

I mean, but you know, is it a particular one that went?

Speaker 4: 26:03

Don't go Well. No, I'm not sure, because I'm not a 13th century operative Mason, but I'm a 21st century speculative Mason. What happened basically was it was the rules of whatever lodge you were with as to where you put your particular mark Right.

Speaker 4: 26:13

Whether it's showing to the public or not. I mean to me I think it's a bit sort of in your face. So it's a bit sort of being a bit proud if you have your mason's mark facing the public. So consequently, it was usually not viewable. However, as time went on and places were repaired, the concept of being an operative mason changed and you may have put material into a building that didn't have a mark, and so today, when we look at some of these cathedrals, I'm sure there's material without marks on it, but the original operative masons definitely were paid on the basis of what they produced.

Speaker 3: 26:53

So I've been around Europe and I've had a look and I didn't realise what you just said, and I was always looking for the different stone, which was the foundation stone. Now, that's a different stone altogether, isn't it? That's the one that they lay first, or something I wasn't, I'm not sure what that is.

Speaker 4: 27:09

Indeed, they used to lay the foundation stone pretty soon, you know, not necessarily first, but you know very much towards the beginning of the so usually I think from memory in the northeast corner.

Speaker 3: 27:20

Okay.

Speaker 4: 27:21

If you take a look at most cathedrals or large stone buildings today that were produced 200 years ago, you will find usually a foundation stone somewhere in the northeast. It was just tradition. There was no. Well, it's a bit of symbolism there, but it's probably something to do with the sun, sunrise you know that sort of thing, sunrises in the east, yep. So yeah, masons' marks were definitely an important part of Masonry and it moves on. So that fourth degree is what is all about Masons and marks.

Speaker 4: 27:58

The fifth degree, on the other hand now they're starting to get in a wee bit into your head stuff it's all about Love it. It's about moving people away into captivity, which is sort of historic. It's based on when Babylon invaded what we now know as the country around Jerusalem and enslaved the Jews and took them back to Babylon. And this really is symbolic about the fact that people can be taken aback People if they don't follow through giving their word. If you give your word to somebody, then you're expected to keep it. And what happened with the invasion by Babylon into Jerusalem was that there are some scholars and some historians who believe that they were not actually paying due homage to the Babylonians. They were not paying their dues, their sort of taxes, to the Babylonians. And the Babylonians one day decided to invade. And so they invaded there and they took the Jews hostage back to Babylon.

Speaker 4: 29:16

And that degree, that fifth degree, it's called the excellent degree. And that particular degree is about how, if you don't keep your word, sooner or later something happens. That's not you know, it's a shock, it's not good for you, but you can still redeem yourself. And what happens in the excellent degree is, of course, the Babylonians historically get beaten. So Cyrus, king of Persia, comes along and he conquers the Babylonian Empire and he says to the Jews well, you can go back home again, provided you play by the rules and pay your taxes on time. And of course, the excellent degree is about Jewish people coming out of Babylon back to Just move that arm to you if you want.

Speaker 3: 30:09

Graham, just pull the mic to you. If you want to sit back.

Speaker 4: 30:12

Oh, yeah, yeah, sure, there you go, and basically, because they've been given their freedom, they go back to Jerusalem and, of course, in the meantime, king Solomon's temple had been destroyed. And this is all history. I mean, you can read this without actually putting any connotations to it. And they help reconstruct the new temple, the second temple of King Solomon, well, on the site of King Solomon, and that whole process. Now you might say, well, what's the interest about the destruction of a temple and the construction of a temple? Well, it's about the individual Mason.

Speaker 4: 30:56

He deconstructs the bad stuff.

Speaker 4: 30:58

He gets rid of the bad stuff. He gets rid of the bad stuff. He thinks to himself well, what is it that's in my life that's holding me back? What is it that's causing me a few issues? What is it that I've done that I shouldn't have done? Well, I need to be comfortable with myself, I need to get rid of that, and then, once I've got rid of that, I may go back and reconstruct myself in a better way.

Speaker 4: 31:24

And so King Solomon's Temple becomes a sort of symbol of your own self, your own person, who has looked at yourself and said well, I need to change, I need to throw away the bad stuff, get rid of the bad and take on the good. And by the time I'm held to account, we call him the great architect of the universe, or the great overseer of the universe, or the most high. We call him that because the name of God can be in many, many, many languages, in many religions. So Freemasonry accepts all religions as long as they believe in a supreme being. And so, consequently, the temple that we're talking about is your own personal temple, your own heart, your own mind. So we reconstruct our own mind and we just use the reconstruction of Solomon's temple as a symbol of that process.

Speaker 3: 32:21

So there's a lot of other traditions and a lot of other philosophies and a lot of other things in humanity that we have that baptism well like a baptism being reborn, I think. In military you strip people down psychologically. You strip them down and then you build them up again. And I remember a famous quote from Bruce Lee where he says he's talking about a cup and it's full of water and he says you cannot have any more water in the cup. You need to empty the cup to be able to refill it with new water. And so it's that kind of thing You're having to get rid of the old and bring in the new.

Speaker 1: 32:54

Okay.

Speaker 3: 32:55

So is that not done in the first three degrees? Then it actually is done.

Speaker 4: 32:59

It is done, but the point is that it's reinforced in the chapter, Right In the chapter. It's about change, change, change. Everything that you see about the fifth and sixth degree is looking at yourself and changing for the better. And by the time you are conferred with the sixth degree, which is the Royal Arch degree, the Royal Arch degree is about masons that used to work on arches. Now arches are one of the hardest particular forms to create.

Speaker 3: 33:32

I went to. Sorry to interject then, but I remember looking at the oculi ini over in. I think it's in Italy somewhere.

Speaker 4: 33:43

I'm pretty sure.

Speaker 3: 33:44

It was a long time ago when I went there and it's a dome but it's got the hole in the middle. I was looking up at it and I was going, oh yeah, whatever, and then I thought I went hang on a minute, how's?

Speaker 4: 33:56

that yeah that's interesting.

Speaker 3: 34:00

So these archways you talk about? Previously they were just like in our doorways. They're just a square top, yeah, sort of a lintel shape, yeah, just a. So the Royal Arch degree is about.

Speaker 4: 34:12

Making arches, which are the hardest form of structure to make in stone, wow. And so, consequently, when you achieve the Royal Arch, what you're basically saying is, your Masonic career has actually achieved what you've achieved, you've gotten as far as you can go. Now, the sixth degree in Masonry I mean four to six are not worked by everybody. Not everybody who joins Masonry decides to join the Royal Arch, and that's fine.

Speaker 3: 34:47

So you don't have to if you don't want to.

Speaker 4: 34:48

No, no, it's purely voluntary, right, if you wish? And I would think probably three out of four Masons are quite happy with being what we call craft Masons in the Blue Lodge. Yep, quite happy there, and so be it. About a quarter would probably go on and do their 4th to 6th degree and get something out of it. But like everything in masonry, if you don't get anything out about it, you know you don't get anything from it. Then what you do is you quietly disappear. Not that we hope that people do that, but the people that do go onto the Royal Arch seem to get an enthusiasm that adds a little bit extra to masonry and it just completes their progress. And all I can say to people is that, again, as part of you know, if you're starting to talk about six degrees, it's getting harder. It's getting harder to understand it. It's getting harder to maintain your own pathway.

Speaker 3: 35:53

And so is there any more than six.

Speaker 4: 35:59

In New Zealand, grand Lodge, our Grand Lodge. Six in new zealand, uh, grand lodge, our grand lodge, only recognizes the first six degrees that we've been talking about. Um, there are other side orders. They're called side orders because they're not part of classical masonry. They often have a theme and that theme does not necessarily have to be in alignment with all what I've just been talking about.

Speaker 4: 36:22

It can be much more specialised. It can be much more focused. Some of them are Christian degrees. Well, of course, I've not gone down that path because basically, I think you know, the church to me is one thing.

Speaker 4: 36:37

Masonry to me is about universal God rather than you know, in other words, one that can be called many names, and it's a force for inclusion. It includes everybody, it doesn't exclude anybody, and I do find that, to a certain extent, if I was to go down a particular religious point of view, I would find that it's a bit hard to accept that I would have to exclude other people from my path, my insights, my thoughts about what it is to be a good man. Yeah, wonderful, I'm not trying to be. I've got to be careful here. This makes it sound a wee bit like I'm putting myself on a pedestal. I'm not. We're constantly trying to be good. There's always going to be challenges out there that get at me. So, yeah, I've got what I've got out of Masonry, but I don't want to say in any way that I've reached a certain stage or not, because basically it's a constant battle we all face all the time.

Speaker 3: 37:42

It's a continual thing. Working with yourself, yes, indeed.

Speaker 2: 37:47

Do you find yourself still learning, like really learning?

Speaker 4: 37:51

Oh man, there are things that really shock is probably too big a word. I find absolutely fascinating to suddenly come across something and say to myself gosh, why didn't I figure that out for myself?

Speaker 2: 38:41

And do you come across these teachings? Because you've just read something on the internet through a lecture, a young or new brother.

Speaker 4: 38:49

Yes, all of that. Sometimes it's the newest brother that comes along and checks you, and half the time they don't even know they're doing it. But you're quite right. One of the things I think that I try to maintain is a sort of level of humbleness, because if you think that you know it all, you're in for a downfall sooner or later. Oh yes, and from even the nearest brother we can learn something. Yep, and I find it absolutely fascinating to talk to these people. Some of them are a wee bit intimidated by titles, and that's why I try to remove as much as possible.

Speaker 3: 39:29

I've got to be honest, it's quite. It was one of the well, it still is one of the things that gets me every now and then. Yep it does, I've got to say but the more that I interact, the more I'm like, okay, you suddenly realise that it doesn't matter whether they're very worshipful or right worshipful or whatever.

Speaker 4: 39:45

they're still human beings, yep. So essentially, there's a pathway that we've got we can take and it may lead to higher promotion, and there's nothing wrong with that, although we've got to remain humble because in the end, sooner or later, even the most proud person has a fall Yep.

Speaker 3: 40:07

We all know that, and so can we talk about your progress then. So as in for your formal achievements through Masonry. So you were initiated, then you went through the first, second and third and you became a Master Mason Sure, and then I assume that you would have taken offices and then you would have gone and become a Worshipful Master.

Speaker 4: 40:30

Yes, I did become a Worshipful Master. I've been a worshipful master. I've been a worshipful master four times, all up. Great, interesting concept of a worshipful master Everybody sort of. Suddenly it becomes their responsibility to make things happen. No, it's really not true. There are three people that make the lodge work properly. They include the two wardens, both junior and senior warden. They've got their jobs to do as well, and the master should delegate as much as possible without over-delegating. And what happens with being a master is that you learn how to lead people.

Speaker 3: 41:09

Right.

Speaker 4: 41:09

Now, leading people does not always come naturally.

Speaker 4: 41:13

You might say, oh, that's a natural born leader over there, you know Well.

Speaker 4: 41:17

I would say that somewhere along their life that person's had some insights given to them, or training, or training Right that give them that leadership potential.

Speaker 4: 41:26

Sure, but we find in masonry there's a lot of men that join who've never been in that leadership role necessarily, and that what happens is as they progress through the various offices that are in Masonry, they gain confidence, they get better and better and they're no longer scared to speak in public, they are no longer scared to give an opinion. They give an opinion but they're also mindful of others. But suddenly they get that opportunity to lead people and I think it's a wonderful experience. I think you suddenly realise you've got talents that have often been left behind or you've never been exposed to the opportunity of using, and you get better and better and by the time I've seen people absolutely blossom in terms of their abilities in the chair. I've seen people who have had stutters, that have had speech impediments of whatever, and I've seen them do a magnificent job because they were given the opportunity and they took to it. And it's just magnificent to watch a new person who's gone into offices as Master Mason blossom into that person that they didn't know they could be.

Speaker 2: 42:48

Yeah, I couldn't agree with more. I mean, I don't like speaking publicly either.

Speaker 1: 42:54

Here I am in a podcast, but yeah, you feel good don't you.

Speaker 3: 43:01

There's a sense of achievement after you've done some of these things. Well, isn't that one of the biggest human fears public speaking.

Speaker 4: 43:07

Well, yes, you're quite right, you're quite right.

Speaker 4: 43:10

But it's only a fear if you don't realise that the persons or people that you're speaking to at the time it doesn't matter if there's 100 people there.

Speaker 4: 43:19

If you can identify to what they're thinking, if you can speak to what they're thinking, to what their values are, what their hopes are, you can be inspiring. And I think if we can see more and more of the younger people coming through to, rather than having, you know, what we call recycled past masters, that means a person who's been a master of the lodge going back a second, third, fourth time To me, there's no virtue if you've been a master of a lodge five times. What needs to happen is that you need to let the younger ones come through. You need to let them shine, let them have their time in the sun, and that opportunity gives them so much confidence and so much sort of good feeling about themselves that I do worry about people who say, oh, there's nobody yet ready to take on the role. I do worry about that because I'm not sure, if I was to ask a little bit more deeply, that I would find maybe there's somebody else that wants the job or there may be some other reason why it's not being given to them.

Speaker 4: 44:31

But I think if a person wants it, they think they can handle it, they give it and they have their time. And this has been difficult over the last 10 or 15 years because society's changed a lot and, of course, the role of master does take a lot of time and it's a matter of realising that when you, as a standard officer of a lodge rather than being master, have you got the time to?

Speaker 4: 45:02

put into the learning processes that you need to go through. Have you got time to the practices? Have you got time for actually reading about mry? And this is in a time when your family is important and I wouldn't recommend that anybody with young children necessarily take on the role of master because it might interfere with some of the family life. So one has to make a decision. If you're asked to being a master, you have to consider your family first. You have to consider the situation you're in your workload before you say yes. And once you've decided to say yes, then have your time.

Speaker 2: 45:50

And you're right, it is a big job, isn't it? It is a big job.

Speaker 3: 45:53

There's it. It is a big job. There's a lot of commitment.

Speaker 2: 45:55

Travelling.

Speaker 3: 45:55

Yeah. Visiting and a lot of work in behind the scenes and everything.

Speaker 4: 46:00

Very satisfying, though Very satisfying.

Speaker 3: 46:02

So you did that four times, and then is that when you went onto the Royal Arch. When did that come into?

Speaker 4: 46:10

being. Oh no, you've got to be careful here. We don't use the word master in the Royal Arch, we use the word first principle. Oh, I mean sorry from yeah, yeah, I've been first principle many other times.

Speaker 3: 46:20

What's the first principle?

Speaker 4: 46:22

First principle is the equivalent of a master in a chapter.

Speaker 3: 46:25

Right, so I was just saying so you became a worshipful master of the Blue Lodge. Yeah, when did you then look at, and what made you look at, becoming and going into the Royal Arch? Into the chapter, into the chapter.

Speaker 4: 46:39

Sorry, I think it was around about when I was senior warden. I think that I decided to join a chapter.

Speaker 3: 46:45

Okay.

Speaker 4: 46:46

And you know, okay, sure, when you become master of your lodge you don't want to be in high office in the chapter, that's for sure. You know you'd like a bit of a rest. So we'd always recommend that a person who is in a good role in when I say good, I mean distinctive role in the craft to take his time before he starts taking on larger roles in the chapter. So I went through there and some years later, of course became well, there's three principles and you know I went in line and eventually made it to the first principle and I enjoyed myself a lot. I've been a first principle many, many times more times than I've been a master.

Speaker 3: 47:31

Oh wow. So what made you want to become a? What made you want to go into the Royal Arch?

Speaker 4: 47:36

Well, remember, I was telling you it's about completing your learning cycle. It's about completing what is available for you to learn.

Speaker 3: 47:44

Right.

Speaker 4: 47:45

And some of it, to a certain extent, is repetition, in the sense that you do the same theme comes through of change, but it's done in a slightly different way. Okay, okay, so you're not bored with it or anything like that. It's still quite useful, quite interesting. There is another particular order I'm also a member of, and that's the cryptic council. Ooh, the cryptic council is really part of the chapter.

Speaker 4: 48:13

It's really four degrees. They're very short, not very long, but they account for some of the historical aspects of the chapter, of the historical side, of what happened when remember, I was talking to you a bit about when Babylon invaded and the Persians did some nasty things to the Babylonians. It's all a bit of history. So those degrees are there for you to do, to be informed a little bit about the historical aspect, rather than you're not making an incredibly great journey, you know, of learning. You are learning, basically the history behind that process. So that's available and you have what the equivalent is called the Thrice Illustrious Master. He's been Master of the Lodge, he's been First Principal of a Chapter and now he's the Master of a Cryptic Council.

Speaker 2: 49:21

So when you say cryptic, so he's called Thrice Illustrious.

Speaker 4: 49:25

So cryptic meaning is that You've got to be careful here with the word cryptic.

Speaker 3: 49:30

Is it cryptic Cryptic.

Speaker 4: 49:32

If you look in a dictionary, you'll find that cryptic's to do with something usually hidden. In this case, it actually means about a crypt.

Speaker 3: 49:41

So we're talking the tomb. Is it like a tomb?

Speaker 4: 49:45

Well, cryptic it just means that there is a crypt involved in the cryptic council All right.

Speaker 3: 49:56

Is it a gang? Thing?

Speaker 4: 49:58

Dan no, Well, I suppose you could say it is. You could say it is, but no, it's, with cryptic, not only the word hidden really means that most crypts are hidden away from the general public. They're not, you know. I mean you don't go into a crypt to worship or anything like that.

Speaker 3: 50:18

I remember that program, tales from the Crypt, and it was like so it was not a tomb, it was like a.

Speaker 4: 50:23

Yeah, it was, but the amazing thing about it is a crypt usually has an arch. Oh, there we go, a number of arches, okay. Oh, there we go A number of archers, okay.

Speaker 3: 50:31

So, anyway, so you've got Thrice Illustrious.

Speaker 4: 50:33

So Thrice Illustrious is the final stage in my career.

Speaker 3: 50:37

Right, wow which you have.

Speaker 4: 50:40

Yeah, I've achieved all those. Yeah, but Wow.

Speaker 2: 50:44

Can I bring it back to just the Royal Archers again slightly, right? Okay, we mentioned that the Mark Master is about responsibility, yep, and the Excellent was about keeping your word, or you used the word earlier fidelity. What would you say? The lesson of the Sixth, the Royal Arch itself would be.

Speaker 4: 51:09

Yeah, okay, now we're getting into opinion here. Yeah, okay, now we're getting into opinion here.

Speaker 2: 51:15

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4: 51:16

There'll be many people that will have different opinions than I've got, and I want to acknowledge that, but I can only give you an opinion.

Speaker 2: 51:22

Absolutely Okay.

Speaker 4: 51:24

The royal arch is about the achievement of something of a high value because, as I said to remember, anybody that could produce archways was pretty darn good. Yeah, right, so it's got to be of high value. So ask yourself what is of high value to you?

Speaker 2: 51:44

Now.

Speaker 4: 51:45

I want to go back to a line that you will find in craft masonry and this line has stuck with me for years, great. This line says to die regretted. Do you understand what I'm getting at? To die regretted. So in other words, your friends, when you die, regret the fact that you have died.

Speaker 3: 52:10

Oh, not the fact that you have done anything that you regret. No, no, no, before you died, no no To die.

Speaker 4: 52:15

regretted meaning essentially other people would say I knew that man.

Speaker 2: 52:19

And he was of good quality, good character.

Speaker 3: 52:21

And I regret that he's dead now. Yeah, I liked him a lot, Right okay?

Speaker 4: 52:26

Okay, so that's one line back in craft, masonry would go right over the top of people if that wasn't explained. So what is this connection between the die regretted and the Royal Arch? Well, the Royal Arch is basically for you to think about before you die, what it is that you really need to do over your life and what you need to do to improve yourself. It's the final step of improvement Would it be like your purpose. Yeah, purpose and love.

Speaker 3: 53:05

What is your purpose?

Speaker 4: 53:05

If you're not doing it, then you haven't lived your purpose. So the reward that you gain in the Royal Arch, if you can use the word reward, be careful here, it's not sort of monetary reward is a spiritual reward.

Speaker 4: 53:20

Yep, all right, yep. Now the spiritual reward is hinted to you all the way through the craft. I'm going to say something to you that's reasonably cryptic, if you pardon the expression. If you take a look at the second degree tracing board and you look at the stairway and you go to what they call the Holy of Holies, Little chamber. To receive your wages due. These are not monetary wages. No monetary wage would ever be paid in the most sacred place of a Jewish temple Right.

Speaker 2: 53:56

Interesting.

Speaker 4: 53:58

So what is the wage that's paid?

Speaker 3: 54:01

Well, you mentioned the word. Well, so you said Jews. It's funny enough, because a couple of weeks ago I had just somewhere or other that had just come up as to. I think I read as to what they were talking about with regards to dues, because it's not, is that? Where are you talking about the same thing?

Speaker 4: 54:20

Yes, actually, dues has got a double meaning, or maybe more than a double meaning, but it's more than just. It's not about you get what you deserve. Do you understand what I'm getting at? Right your wage is due.

Speaker 3: 54:33

You get what you're due.

Speaker 4: 54:33

You get what you're due you get what you deserve Right Now the royal arch. You get what you deserve Now. Does that mean that you could get punished? Maybe?

Speaker 3: 54:45

If you deserve it. I guess Possibly.

Speaker 4: 54:49

Does that mean that you could be rewarded? Well then, the question then becomes what are you rewarded with? A spiritual reward, yeah.

Speaker 3: 54:57

So the Royal Arch is about achieving comfortableness with yourself, to know that when you die, you have or you will be regretted Because you've lived a good life and you start that process and the entered apprentice and you learn and you learn how to be better and better and better as you grow and as you learn and grow, then you die and then you will be hopefully remembered for all of the good stuff and being a good bugger, so this is interesting.

Speaker 2: 55:34

There's more to it than that. I guess there will be.

Speaker 4: 55:36

But I think at this stage, I think I've given you the overview. Yeah, there's more detail that I could go into, but I think at this stage let's stick with the overview because I think it connects with people a lot easier than if you get into too much detail with people, a lot easier than if you get into too much detail. So, the whole career path that I've gone through, when I achieved the you know, being given the Holy Royal Arch degree, I felt, wow, there's something happened here. I'm not quite sure what it is and I need to go and have a look, you know, look at it in a bit more detail and see what it actually is and make some sense out of it. And that's the sense that I've just communicated to you. But my sense is distinctive to me. It might be something different to someone else. Yeah, wow.

Speaker 2: 56:29

So can I just recap Responsibility, fidelity achievement Is there a rule of three there?

Speaker 4: 56:40

Yeah well, in Freemasonry the rule of three occurs everywhere, includes especially in the blue degrees, that's, the craft degrees. The rule of three basically says that when you look at some concepts, if you take extreme views about those concepts, you can actually be in bad territory. You can actually be not practicing good behavior amongst yourselves and amongst your fellows and amongst your society. So what happens is that there are two extremes, that you can either be so good at one extreme and not to be so good at the other that you don't actually achieve very much. So the rule of three basically means there's always a third factor that you should think about, and I use the expression well, not the expression, I use the example to think in terms of strength, beauty and wisdom.

Speaker 4: 57:47

Strength is about energy. It's about doing something. It's about commitment. It's about wanting to achieve something. Yeah, okay, beauty is something that's about commitment. It's about wanting to achieve something. Yeah, okay, beauty is something that's useful, something that's nice to look at, something that you feel comfortable with, something that you you think is good. That is beauty. You know it's a very wide definition.

Speaker 4: 58:09

If you're so busy producing something with energy, then you're not going necessarily anywhere. Your energy is undefined. It's not actually achieving much, it's just going around in circles or it's just expending energy for no direction. That's one extreme. The other extreme is beauty, where you're so busy with these wonderful ideas, these grand ideas, these things that help people, but you're not actually doing anything, you're just thinking about it, you're just not actually putting it, making it into action or into reality. So those are the two extremes.

Speaker 4: 58:51

And what's in the middle? And if you know your rule of three, you'll know that wisdom is in the middle. And if you look at this, the first tracing board, you'll see the three columns wisdom, strength and beauty. And wisdom is always in the background. It's that delicate little column, a little. It's a little than the other ones because it's being in the background. It's sort of halfway in terms of beauty and halfway in terms of strength. But basically, what wisdom does is try to regulate the extremes of strength and beauty to actually make something achieved, something really useful achieved. So that's the rule of three. It's a good example. There are many, many, many mores, but again, I think we'll be here for the next two hours talking about those, those rules of three and you're going to give a bit of a talk about this coming up very soon.

Speaker 4: 59:45

Yes, yes, I do and it's it's quite interesting to watch the audience if you can use the word audience. And it's quite interesting to watch the audience if you can use the word audience, because when some of these points that I've just tried to make come out in what we do, you can almost see the people. Wow.

Speaker 3: 1:00:06

The light goes on.

Speaker 4: 1:00:07

So that's what it's about. So that's where we're going. That's what it's all about, and it's lovely. I suppose you can say one of the reasons I do it as much as I can is because I love to see that reaction?

Speaker 3: 1:00:20

Is that part of your service? Is that part of the regret that you were talking about?

Speaker 4: 1:00:29

earlier. Would that be part of yours? Perhaps I don't have regret.

Speaker 3: 1:00:34

No, as in. You want us, you know.

Speaker 4: 1:00:37

One of my well, I suppose you can one of my motives for doing what I'm doing today and doing other things in an actual lodge room is to try to give them or people, the audience, some indication of what our ritual means. Right, because it's easily overlooked. We can be so busy memorising it, we can be so busy delivering it, but to be delivering it with some knowledge and understanding about what the ritual is trying to say, it allows you to walk up to somebody after it's been delivered and say, well, did you think about this point here, or what was your impression? Or something of this nature, so that you, basically you want them enthused, so they ask more questions. Because eventually I've been into situations where it's gone on so long that you can see half the audience are saying, oh my gosh, I wonder how long he's going to go on for.

Speaker 4: 1:01:39

But you've got to be disciplined in the sense that you've got to say well, look, you know this is enough for tonight. We can't do it anymore, but feel free to ring me or ask a question or whatever whenever you see me, and that's what I try to do. Um, when I go to a meeting, if somebody wants to ask me a question, happy to give an opinion on it, but, um, but I always always say go back, remember, this whole process you're going through is one of self-enlightenment. It's not all about listening to me and I'm not going to create some sort of doctrine that you must believe in. You've got to figure it out for yourself and, as long as you can, keep thinking in terms of what's this ritual trying to say and why is it trying to say it, rather than just listening to me? Who's already gone down the path, maybe 20 or 30 years ago, I've got my opinion, but it may not be right.

Speaker 3: 1:02:34

And so, based on that, then I have a question about is there an absolute right and an absolute wrong? Then no, wow, there you go.

Speaker 4: 1:02:48

No, I'll give the classic example. I mean, this is the old ethics question. Remember I told you some years and years ago about teaching ethics? You're in a lifeboat.

Speaker 3: 1:03:00

You're 50 or 60 people.

Speaker 4: 1:03:02

The old lifeboat routine.

Speaker 3: 1:03:04

The lifeboat or the train.

Speaker 1: 1:03:05

The tram, yeah, lifeboat or train.

Speaker 4: 1:03:08

You've got more people. That can you know. If you end the life of some, you may save the other. So I usually ask the question is there a justification for very nasty things called murder? And boy, you'll get some reactions to that. I'm not really here to establish right and wrong. I'm just saying to you that there are times in your life when you really the shade of right and the shade of wrong become a little bit blurred and you've got to keep on thinking to yourself this. One last point If whatever I do, is it just Is it?

Speaker 1: 1:03:51

justice, is it?

Speaker 4: 1:03:53

the right thing from a just point of view. And that's the final thing and I referred you to our ritual the degree of after initiation tells you. The final test of any decision you make is is what you're doing? Just.

Speaker 3: 1:04:12

So you've got to have thought about your decision, about your choices.

Speaker 4: 1:04:16

The impact of your decision on other people?

Speaker 3: 1:04:18

Yeah, yeah, that's brilliant.

Speaker 2: 1:04:20

So yeah, wow.

Speaker 3: 1:04:22

That's super cool.

Speaker 2: 1:04:23

Well, that's great. I think we'll probably end it on that.

Speaker 1: 1:04:28

We're going to wrap that up.

Speaker 2: 1:04:29

It's been a real pleasure, and that's been well over an hour.

Speaker 3: 1:04:34

That's been a real pleasure and that's been well over an hour. Can I just quickly ask about your it's probably going to be a bit longer than that your hopes for the future, for Freemasonry then?

Speaker 4: 1:04:46

Well, my hope for the future is to be part of a process where I try to explain as much as possible about the actual meaning of our ritual and what gold is buried in amongst it.

Speaker 3: 1:05:02

Sounds like some good gold.

Speaker 4: 1:05:04

Yeah, and to be able to do that for the next 20 years and when my life ends. You know, whatever, I would like to be able to think that I've done my bit to help the next generation. They have actually, in the tracing board, a point where the actual directions of the boards reverse. If you take a look in the first and second degree boards they're always east-west, but in the third degree board it goes west-east. And why? Because when you are due to meet your maker, you should have been looking back to help your fellow masons come forward. And that's what I hope to do to be able to look back and help my fellow masons come more towards the east, more towards being master, more towards being master of themselves.

Speaker 3: 1:05:58

Brilliant, brilliant, well said. Well, look, it's been a great chat. Thank you very much, just Graham. It's been a wonderful chat and I'd love to have some more chats with you in the future.

Speaker 4: 1:06:10

Well, I would be only too happy to, but I think you need some variety of opinion now and we shall get.

Speaker 3: 1:06:17

This is all this is. This is just everyone's opinion. I've got one and, uh, usually people don't like my one. I don't even know if I do now I'm gonna have to review my own opinion okay, thank you very much, no problem thanks for listening to the masonic mic.

Speaker 1: 1:06:34

the views expressed by our hosts and guests are their own and don't necessarily reflect those of Grand Lodge or any affiliated body. Before you go, be sure to download the Masonica app to stay connected and support the show. For more Masonic resources, blogs and podcasts, remember to subscribe, like and share, and until next time, stay square.