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SPEAKER_02 0:00

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SPEAKER_01 0:36

Welcome to the Masonic Mic, where we explore unique life stories through the lens of Freemasons. Today we are honored to be joined by a very special guest and a very close friend of mine, Worshipful Brother Arvid Mars Lomani. Mar Slamani, I nailed it. My apologies. He's a very good friend of mine, and I have not mastered your last name. I'm very sorry for that. I have this time around, and thank you so much for joining us. It's a pleasure to have you here. And I said that you're a uh uh a worshipful master.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

And that means also, also, I should say, that you're in the Grand Lodge.

SPEAKER_03 1:17

Yes, I am as a Grand Steward.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 1:19

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:20

So Arvind, thank you for joining us.

SPEAKER_03 1:22

And my pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

So you're a Freemason.

SPEAKER_03 1:26

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

As we all are. Would you like to talk to us a little bit about how how you became

A Childhood Glimpse Of Freemasonry

SPEAKER_01 1:32

a Freemason, those early days, and what inspired you?

SPEAKER_03 1:36

Okay. Um my first sort of introduction to Freemasonry was watching my dad. I must have been, I'm gonna say, about eight or nine years old, where he rushed in from work one day, you know, and he said, Everyone out. I really need to focus and get organized. And we had no idea what was going on. So we scuttled out of the dining area and he shot into his bedroom, had a quick shower, then I heard this mighty crash. And we went in and had a look and said, Is everything all right? And was this aftershave bottle smashed on the floor? He's trying to get ready in such a rush. And then he said, No, no, no, everything's okay. And he went on and put on a dark suit, a black suit, thinking back, a little bow tie, and then he rushed out, and that was it. So nothing was done, and he obviously came back quite late and we were in bed. So the next morning I asked him, What where did you go? What actually happened? He said, Oh, I went to a Freemasons meeting. Oh, wow. So he said it straight out. He did say it straight out. Wow. Didn't make much sense to me. I said, What's that all? What's that about? And he said, Um, it's something my father was a member, and I've always wanted to become a member, so I've joined the Freemasons. Oh, I said, Is that just sort of Indian cultural thing? I had no idea what he's talking about. I'll just take you back one step. I've been in New Zealand close to 40 years. Prior to that, I grew up in India in a place called Madras, which is now called Chennai, in the southern part of India. So when I'm talking about this particular incident, I'm talking about Chennai or Indian, my days back then when I was eight years old, eight or nine years old.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

Right. So for our listeners, just in case you couldn't understand, there is a slight accent, and my mispronunciation or my underpronunciation of your name is because you're uh uh from Indian India and you're uh so you're an Indian Kiwi. Yes. Exactly. Okay, okay. Sorry, so yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:33

So a third of my life in India, and two-thirds at this point in time in New Zealand.

SPEAKER_00 3:37

Wow, yep.

SPEAKER_03 3:39

So um, yeah. So I had no idea what he's talking about. He said no. He said it's a sort of English uh Freemasonic society of men, generally only men, and you've got to be a fine, upstanding individual. So I did look at him and saying, Are you one? Yes. So he said, yes, my father was a member. And um in those days, I don't think they had an Indian constitution as yet. Right. So we're looking at the late 60s, early 70s. So the lodge that he joined was an English lodge called the Archibald Campbell Lodge.

SPEAKER_01 4:15

Archibald Campbell.

SPEAKER_03 4:16

Yes. And it's still an English constitution, even though it's run under the sort of Indian umbrella, so to speak. It's like a like an English lodge here.

SPEAKER_01 4:25

So there was a bit of change recently, but it's still the essentially the same thing. Same thing.

SPEAKER_03 4:30

So he joined that lodge. And so that was my first sort of introduction of hearing about the Freemasons. But being an eight or nine-year-old, you know, it goes over your head and then you just forget about it. But every month I used to see him dress up and carry a bag and he'd go off to these meetings. So uh that was pretty much it. And um, so when I came to New Zealand in the sort of mid-80s, you know, I really never knew much about the lodge thing because I used to see my father head off, but never really asked him too much about it. Because in my teenage years, like most teenagers, you're hanging out with friends, you're doing your own thing. Oh, you like teenage things. Yeah, do your teenage things. And you say, Oh, that's what dad does once a month, sort of thing, or maybe even more than once a month. Uh but um as you get older teenage years, you know, he's taking a bottle of scotch with him every time he goes to this meeting. So there must be a bit of fun going on somewhere. So um, yeah, so that was pretty much

Moving To New Zealand And Joining

SPEAKER_03 5:26

it. So coming to New Zealand, obviously went to university here, didn't really know much about pre-masonry and never got involved till the sort of early 90s, where uh a good friend of mine, uh Michael McDonald, he's a worship brother as well. He wasn't a member of the Lodge, but he worked for he's a lawyer, worked for a law firm, and I was starting up businesses and doing things in those years in the early 90s. So I needed a lawyer, and he said, Hey, I worked part-time for this law firm uh called R. Fraser. Maybe Roger could be your lawyer, sort of thing. So I turned up and and Roger did become a lawyer, and you used to go out for lunches because he had an office in town, and you know, and catch up. And he said, Oh. He said, Do you know anything about Freemasonry? And I said, Very little, recounting the story that I said about my dad and your dad's baby. He said, Oh, looks like you got a little bit of fam family history. Would you like to join the lodge here? I said, Yeah, let me think about it. In those days we didn't have mobile phones or Facebook, but you'd ring your dad once a week, and then it was always in a hurry, and people be yelling on the phone because as if they we couldn't hear because of the distances. But anyway, I said to my dad, hey, I'm looking at joining the lodge. He said, Oh, that'll be fantastic if you if you did.

SPEAKER_01 6:45

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:46

So I said, Okay, I'll join it. And I said, My lawyer is uh was a worship of master, and he's asked me to join this lodge here in Christchurch in Sumner, and he said, Love you to do it. So that's when I did, and I joined the lodge with Roger Fraser.

SPEAKER_01 7:01

Right. So can I back up though? W you said that you lived in India and then you came to New Zealand. Can I ask why you moved to New Zealand?

A Fortune Teller And A New Life

SPEAKER_03 7:10

Okay. Now, back in the 80s in New Zealand and India, it was quite boring because India is a socialist country, a big socialist democracy. So to to keep jobs for the locals, they never imported technology or didn't really want technology. As a result, for someone like me that liked technology and engineering, it was a bit boring.

SPEAKER_00 7:33

Right. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 7:34

My father was in engineering, he studied in Germany, did his masters in Germany back in the 50s, and he had a big engineering firm making radiators for cars in India. And every time they had to bring in technology, he had to pay 350% duties. Wow. So as a result, uh India was quite stifled because I can see what the government, what they were trying to do, they're trying to keep jobs and keep you know the technology low and keep the human factor of work quite high. Yep. So I was always thinking a lot of my friends went to the US. That was a big destination, a big draw card, especially if you did well educationally. And I did reasonably well. So most of my friends went there, but I had no interest in going going to the US.

SPEAKER_00 8:18

Right.

SPEAKER_03 8:19

Um, too capitalistic for me. Nothing wrong with it, but just for me, as a personal opinion. I'd been to Europe because, like I said, my father studied in Germany and we had a lot of friends there. So I went to Europe. Again, didn't do much for me or the UK. But I like the lifestyle of Australia, New Zealand. Yep. Yep. And I thought, hmm, they play cricket. Looks sunny and warm. That was my perception. I should have checked the weather takes back then. We didn't have an internet.

SPEAKER_01 8:45

I think that's the North Island, I think.

SPEAKER_03 8:47

Yes, I know. I thought it's sunny. I'd come to either Australia or New Zealand. So I applied to the universities here. Yep. And um New Zealand came up first, so I took New Zealand. However, a really strange thing happened during my travels in India. I was traveling in India a couple of years prior to coming to New Zealand. And in the southern part of India, India is like a triangle. Right. Right. In the very southern part, it meets on three oceans, which is the Bay of Bengal, the Indian Ocean, and the Arabian Sea. So you've got three. So spiritually, it's very significant. And there are temples there which allow the sun's rays to come in at different angles, and it's a very spir spiritual place. And it's a good place for diving. There's a lot of free diving down there. So I used to do a little bit of swimming and a little bit of diving. So I went there, but not compared to the locals. But anyway, just used to travel there on my motorbike. And while sitting outside one of these temples, there was a guy, you know, reading cards and telling a fortune, like a fortune teller, for the lack of a better word. But he was a religious guy. I was getting bored in the afternoons. I thought, why not? So I sat with this guy and he read my future, I guess for an hour or so. And um then he said, you know, you'll be going overseas in the next few years. And I thought maybe that's an easy guess for him because um I had a motorbike and a few clothes and things. I thought he'll know slightly higher socioeconomic class, perhaps. The chances of you going overseas are reasonably high. So not a biggie.

SPEAKER_00 10:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:24

And I was over that age where some of the guys are doing well at university. He could have taken that guest and gone there. Sure. Yeah. I said, Oh yeah. And then he says, um, I said, Do you know where? He said, so he pulled out a sort of map sort of thing and started drawing things, and he said, he pointed to the bottom right-hand side of a map, which is Australia, New Zealand. You know, if you look at a traditional map. And I thought that was very odd. He said, You'll be going to this part of the world, like the islands of New Zealand, Australia. And I thought, very odd because very few people knew about Australia, New Zealand back then, especially for education. Few people would know about it for cricket. Sure. Because the cricket team's visiting and so on.

SPEAKER_01 11:04

But not really the hypothetical and wasn't my choice back then.

SPEAKER_00 11:09

Right.

SPEAKER_03 11:10

You know? And then I've been to Europe after that, and I thought, no, that's not me. And that's when I decided this part of the world. And I thought that was a really unusual sort of prediction for someone to make like that. You know, it's out of left field.

SPEAKER_01 11:23

Well, it stayed in your mind, so it must have made an impact somehow rather.

SPEAKER_03 11:26

It did. It did.

SPEAKER_01 11:27

Well, we're glad that you did. We're very glad that you did. So you joined, so you came over and then you and then you got introduced to Freemasonry.

SPEAKER_03 11:34

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 11:35

And so if we could we could link your father, how did how was that conversation when you said, hey dad, I've joined? Or did he did he get involved in your membership?

SPEAKER_03 11:44

Or didn't get involved in the membership being so far away.

Family Pride And Robbie Burns Night

SPEAKER_03 11:48

Yeah. But when he made the next trip here, he visited the lodge obviously at Sumner. Loved it. My mother loved it as well because he did a Robbie Burns night. Oh, yes. And the late Roger Fraser is very, very good in doing the Robbie Burns thing.

SPEAKER_01 12:01

So for our listeners and for other um um Masonic members who like this guy and this guy who possibly don't understand exactly what that means. Yeah. What does it mean when you say Robbie Burns night?

SPEAKER_03 12:12

Robbie Burns night is a Scottish thing, even though we're not a Scottish lodge, is when they do an ode to the haggis. So they bring the haggis in in a bottle of scotch, and you've got to do yes, it's piped in with the bagpipes, so it's quite a ceremonial thing. And the ode is done in the Scottish sort of Gaelic language, but it's it's in reading Robbie Byrne's poems. You're not reading it, you've got to recite it.

SPEAKER_00 12:38

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_03 12:39

It's just incredible. If you hear someone doing it well, like Roger used to, and there were a few other people who do it well.

SPEAKER_00 12:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:45

It's really out of this world, it's really worthwhile going to.

SPEAKER_00 12:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:48

There's one of the few nights where it's not traditionally lodged, so partners are allowed. Oh, really? Yes, it is.

SPEAKER_01 12:55

Okay. I didn't know.

SPEAKER_03 12:56

It's a function function thing.

SPEAKER_01 12:58

Right. Yeah. Yeah. My dad, uh, he was a member of the Robbie Boone's Lodge. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 13:03

Which it would have done that as well.

SPEAKER_01 13:04

Yes, I don't know much about it, but that's uh he was from Scottish descent, so that's uh so that's that. So your dad came over and it was a Robbie, a Robbie Boone's evening.

SPEAKER_03 13:13

Yes, it is.

SPEAKER_01 13:14

So that would have blown his mind as well.

SPEAKER_03 13:16

Would he have ever seen that been one in England, but my mother had never seen one. Right. And even at 89 and a half, she still remembers and talks about it. 89 and a half. I love that. Brazil, sorry, is what I mean now. So that's going back nearly 30 years, uh, 25, 26 years ago, and she still remembers it. Wow. Well, that's great. Made a huge impression because Roger did such a good job, and she loved Rob. She's just a rephrase, I'll go back a bit. She's an English professor, so her expertise in Shakespeare and Robbie, but she's done a lot of that stuff in English literature. So when she heard that that was something for her.

SPEAKER_01 13:51

That would have been out of the world. She would have loved that.

SPEAKER_03 13:54

She loved it.

SPEAKER_01 13:55

Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful. And so your father was blown away. He was very proud. He would have been very, very proud.

SPEAKER_03 14:00

Very, very proud. He tried to get my older brother who lives in England into the lodge. And my brother got to maybe fellowcraft. I don't even think he made Master Mace and gave up, which disappointed my dad a bit because the lodge was a big part of his life.

SPEAKER_01 14:14

I understand, but it's also not for everyone. And I think you've got a you've got to join to know. And if it's it's just not for everyone. Yeah. Um, but that would be, I mean, at least one of you know, at least your urine.

SPEAKER_03 14:27

So um so when I used to go back to it, you know, on holidays, we'd practice a ritual together. He's a great ritualist by father, much better than I was, or am.

SPEAKER_01 14:34

Oh, I've I've seen your ritual, and I don't think you're bad at him.

SPEAKER_03 14:38

He knew the bit back to front. And in fact, when he retired from work, um a lot of the lodge members from his lodge or the other lodges would come to our home and practice ritual with him because he used to teach them ritual. He had the time and he'd say, Come on over.

SPEAKER_01 14:52

Wow. Yeah. That's

Comparing Lodge Life India And NZ

SPEAKER_01 14:54

brilliant. So, how different is English? How sorry, how different is the New Zealand Freemasonry to the Freemasonry in India? I guess language one, but maybe not. I don't know. Is it different and what is different about it?

SPEAKER_03 15:09

Not much of a difference because our ritual book is pretty close to the English ritual. Of course.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

Yep. You're right. That's okay. That might be your dad now. He's heard you're on the Masonic mic. Yeah. He wants to listen.

SPEAKER_03 15:22

I thought I turned it off, sorry. Um, yeah, coming back to it's very, very similar ritual-wise.

SPEAKER_01 15:30

Yep, no, you're right. I'm gonna check my phone now.

SPEAKER_03 15:32

Yeah. Uh very similar ritual-wise. Um, there's not much difference. Uh all the lodges, at least the English ones, are in English.

SPEAKER_01 15:39

Well, they would be, yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_03 15:41

And so are the Indian lodges as well. Indian constitution are all in English. The difference being uh the volume of the sacred law can be the Bhagavad Gita. Yes, or the Quran, because a lot of Muslims who live in India as well, obviously the Bible, or if you're Buddhist, you bring whatever you know, book. So they're quite open to that. But otherwise, the ritual is very, very similar, and the dress code is exactly the same, even though it's 38 degrees in summer, you still have to wear a dark suit and a science mask. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:15

So I know when I was in Perth, they had because it was such a hot country, they would have the white jackets. Yes. And no such no such breaking in there.

SPEAKER_03 16:27

So things are sort of, you know, just kept very similar to what the British did, I guess, back in the day.

SPEAKER_04 16:33

We spoke to the worshipful master of progress uh last time, and they were talking about the is it the barong that they wear? Correct. It's a very lightweight, almost see-through thing, which obviously you doesn't port over too well to New Zealand because of the weather.

SPEAKER_03 16:46

No, no. But I wish they did something like that in southern India in particular, because it does get quite warm in summer, but unfortunately, you know, people do wear suits.

SPEAKER_01 16:54

So, how has your cultural background influenced your perspective and involvement within the craft?

Culture Diversity And Real Listening

unknown 17:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 17:02

Um culturally, growing up in a place like India, especially if you lived in the cities, it's very cosmopolitan in terms of India's a big country, so when people talk about India, they think everyone's just you're Indian. But you're not really, in the sense, and I'll explain that what I mean by that. It's like saying you're European. What does that mean? Are you from Northern Europe? Which is quite different, you know, Norwegian or Dutch or Northern German, right through the Mediterranean, or going down further. So everything's different. People look a little bit different, the food's different, the culture is different, everything is different.

SPEAKER_01 17:43

Of course, of course. So it's a melting pot.

SPEAKER_03 17:46

It is a melting pot. So growing up in a city, the major cities in India, it's pretty much a melting pot where people come from different parts of India, because the commerce are usually done in cities. And the city that I grew up in, China, Madras, has been a city that's known for its universities. So all the top medical schools and engineering schools are sort of from there.

SPEAKER_00 18:09

Right.

SPEAKER_03 18:09

As a result, even when India opened up at the borders, all the big engineering firms, the car firms, all of them, IT firms, they've got big offices there because that is a hub. So even prior to that, so it's a melting pot. So you'd get a lot of people from northern India, middle part of India, and other parts of southern India. Madras is what's known as Tamil Nadu. So people speak Tamil as the original language there.

SPEAKER_01 18:35

Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 18:36

So the common link is English. So the Indian currency note is in 14 different languages. Sorry, say that again? The Indian currency, every note that you get is in 14 different languages. Gosh.

SPEAKER_01 18:50

Wow, that's like a a page.

SPEAKER_03 18:53

You've got to read this tells you what it is.

SPEAKER_01 18:56

It'll be wow, okay.

SPEAKER_03 18:57

Because it's 546 languages and dialects in India. Oh, is that all? Exactly. So they could put that all in a note. 14. So narrowed it down to 14 instead of 500. Wow. So when you grow up in a city, you're going to find people that speak different languages. Yeah, of course. Culture is different, diet is definitely different. Some are vegetarian, some are not, some are North Indian vegetarian, some are south. The food's totally different.

SPEAKER_00 19:20

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 19:20

So you've got to be very tolerant. In addition, you're going to have good friends who are in my family who are Christian, but you're going to have Protestants be Anglican, but you're going to find Catholics or other denominations. Right through mainly Hindus, because 80% of the population are Hindu. Sure. Muslims. So you're going to get a huge melting box pot of people in any city. So you tend to learn to become very tolerant.

SPEAKER_04 19:45

Well, there's that word, Reuben.

SPEAKER_01 19:47

Yeah, that's one of my favourite lessons, I think. If uh if you listen to my last podcast that we summarized for my for me at this stage, Freemasonry has really learned has really taught me to be tolerant. I mean, we don't have, and I've I have not yet seen a diverse uh volumes of the sacred law. Yeah. I've only seen a couple. Yeah. But I imagine, you know, like you say, you've got every single type of uh religious faith and the that all beyond. And so that that really does mean that you have to be you have to be aware of others, other and and yourself. And so Well you do.

SPEAKER_03 20:28

It's just simple things like a refractory, you've got to make sure that he cared for a variety of diets, right? Because the northern and northern Indians, and even from different states, because the language is so different, the accents are different. So your hearing or listening, not so much hearing, but your listening ability. You've got to be more focused in your listening because the accents vary so much in the same room with the same group of Indians. So that's what I mean when you say Indian, it's just not one.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

Not just one.

SPEAKER_03 20:58

There are some regional um like they roll the R's in Southland. So there's some regional differences here, but not a hell of a lot compared to over there, is what I'm saying. So very different. And if people haven't studied in a city, their English may not be that good, and they may have a very strong accent, which is difficult to follow, so you've got to really listen. Yeah. So you learn a lot of things growing up in a sort of diverse multicultural city.

SPEAKER_01 21:22

And so would that have helped you with your Freemasonic career? Would you say?

SPEAKER_03 21:26

Absolutely. Yep. Yep. Yeah. So when I first came to New Zealand, right, I guess Christchurch was very monocultural. I'm talking about the mid-80s. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:35

Mainly white.

SPEAKER_01 21:36

Especially Christchurch, I must.

SPEAKER_03 21:38

Especially Christchurch, to the point at which I've been asked at least three times by different Maori people to join the Maori party because I was the only Brahga walking around.

SPEAKER_01 21:49

Sorry, I'm not laughing, but it's it's comical. It is comical.

SPEAKER_03 22:00

Inappropriate there, but yes, no, but a very monocultural. So when I joined the Sumner Lodge, I was the only brown face for at least 10, maybe 15 years. It's only very recently with a lot more Filipino brethren.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:13

But there's a lot more diversity, so to speak. You know? And um and in the North Island, or even yeah, many in the North, not so much here, but I've seen perhaps brethren from the African continent.

SPEAKER_01 22:26

Oh, yes, yes, yes. That's actually an interesting point because we are in our terror, and I don't know if there is actually a specific Terero uh Mori lodge. I don't know if that's not a lot of things.

SPEAKER_03 22:36

No, there isn't. And in fact, I was talking to someone yesterday, he's English. So it was quite diverse yesterday's um meeting. And we uh just to go back one step. Um last night was the first Tuesday's lodges in Canterbury, meaning lodges that meet on the first Tuesday of the month. We meet once a year and have a common meeting, usually in August. Okay. And uh last night was in in Ashburton, and the other two lodges are in Christchurch, so the other two lodges will be uh the meetings will be held in Christchurch, like our lodges hosting it next month. But in terms of diversity, many people from the Philippines, obviously me born in India, um a few English people, um a few Australians born in Australia, so it was quite a diverse bunch. One person from Asia, so when I say Asia from China, so it was quite a diverse bunch if you looked around the room. And I was talking to Nick, who was a he's English, and we were talking about maybe we should run a whole lodge meeting in Torail. We've never done that.

SPEAKER_01 23:42

Wouldn't be uh it wouldn't be a silly thing considering that we are we are in New Zealand.

SPEAKER_03 23:48

We are, we are. And I thought, hmm, that really would make a lot of sense if we if we could manage, I'd love to do it.

SPEAKER_01 23:54

Yeah, well, I mean we could um we could welcome the comments on that anyways. I think that would be something that we could uh I think my one of my close friends and I also discussed this years and years ago. We were in the North Island with it, and it we still sort of noticed the same type of gent. Yes, you know, it was your yeah, yeah, yeah, older, whiter fella, uh, which is fine, but it was it was noticeable. And we sort of wondered, where are all the brothers? Yes, yes, but yeah, um and so so Freemasonry in India, essentially the same thing. Essentially the same thing.

SPEAKER_03 24:31

Yeah, the only difference being um real estate is more expensive, at least in the cities. So, for example, in um uh uh lodge in in Madras or Chennai, it's a big homestead which has three temples, it's huge, and it's got three refectories as well. Where so when you finish your the workings of the lodge, you go on a refractory, and because it's big enough and they've got so many members, it's fully catered for. So you pay for your dinner in advance, and everyone meets there for dinner and drinks are at cost, so to speak.

SPEAKER_01 25:07

And so would it be it would it's quite active. There's quite a lot of members going to be a few years.

SPEAKER_03 25:12

Quite a lot of members, very popular. Right. And the people tend to socialise afterwards, so uh it's not uncommon that you would get home after midnight. So people go after the lodge is closed, they would go to a bar or a pub, socialise further, meet with one another, so there's a lot more social interaction perhaps in here. There's not a criticism of here because I know we have families and we've got work and things the next day.

SPEAKER_01 25:40

It's just a difference.

SPEAKER_03 25:41

It's a difference, but people live there and it's warmer, so they tend to go out at night.

SPEAKER_01 25:44

Yeah, I think I recall my grandads um referring to them being coming home late at night, like early in the morning. And I think the Australian brethren, it was a similar thing. They would uh they definitely partake in uh in drinks and socialise until the early hours and then and then come home. And I think it's a different world. Uh yes it is. And I think we're in different different times now, different times now. And so it's um, you know, I think maybe they had a lot of marriage counselling back then. Yes, I think they probably needed some. I think they didn't have it. I think if I was to turn up drunk at about two o'clock in the morning once a month, where I can't tell my wife where I am and who I'm with, I think we might have problems because if she did the same thing, I'd be definitely asked. Absolutely, absolutely. So things are different now. And I think it's changed for the good. I think we can uh, you know, we would try to be more transparent, and that's the that's the whole point. Um and so you we refer to you as a worshipful master, but you've actually got Grand Lodge rank.

Grand Lodge Roles And Grand Steward

SPEAKER_01 26:41

Yes. Can you talk me through that? What does that mean?

SPEAKER_03 26:44

Okay, Grand Lodge effectively oversees the operation of most of the lodges here in New Zealand, so everything comes under the auspices of the Grand Lodge. And with Grand Lodge, you've also got district Grand Lodge because Grand Lodge can't be everywhere at the same time, sort of thing. So once a year, as you know, most lodges install a mast as a King Solomon's chair.

SPEAKER_01 27:09

Yeah, so that's the he's the chief, he's the boss, he's the one that is the leader of the lodge that runs the lodge, and so he's put in there once a year.

SPEAKER_03 27:18

Once a year by Grand Lodge, who oversees that to make sure he's the right the person, he's been properly elected, and so on. Okay. So that's what Grand Lodge typically does, and they also oversee any of the bylaws and the laws governing the way a lodge is run. So lodge lodges do have some leeway or independence in terms of ritual and changing things slightly.

SPEAKER_00 27:41

Right.

SPEAKER_03 27:42

Okay. But only within so much reason. Uh if you're going to make any major changes, you need to go to Grand Lodge for approval.

SPEAKER_01 27:49

And there'd be no real reason for to to do changes. I suppose it wouldn't be Well, different lodges do may do things differently.

SPEAKER_03 27:57

For example, at Sumner, when we do without saying too much, uh the third degree, we do the alternative third degree. Right. So that's very unique to our lodge. Not every lodge does it, but all our third degrees are alternative. We do them to the standard third degree.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

Right. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 28:13

Okay. So um so that's okay, but but we've have it approved by Grand Lodge. It's again, you know, if you want to do something in the lodge in terms of expenditure, capital expenditure and so on, sometimes Grand Lodge needs approval because they may contribute towards it.

SPEAKER_01 28:27

Right. So we the lodges are autonomous to a degree, but there's certain certain guidelines that they will have to follow, and and that's when Grand Lodge will step in and say yes or no or what have you. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 28:38

So historically, because of this whole thing of going to Grand Lodge to get approvals on your bylaws or constitution or how you run your particular lodge, because you've got the guideline from Grand Lodge, in the past, there have been some conflicts with some lodges or members within that lodge with Grand Lodge. And you can understand why, because people feel we need to do things in a certain way. And Grand Lodge may say, you know, it doesn't fall within our guidelines. This is just normal human behavior. I don't even realize that it is. Yeah. Yeah. Uh and um one of the reasons getting a Grand Lodge is to see how they operate and build a better uh, you know, communication between our lodge in particular, or the lodges in Canterbury and Grand Lodge.

SPEAKER_01 29:20

Okay, so you're in the Grand Lodge. So what's your what is your role in the Grand Lodge?

SPEAKER_03 29:24

My role is what's done as a Grand Steward. So effectively, the Grand Master, we assist a Grand Master in any of the roles that they do, you know. So for say, for example, if they're presenting the installed master with their badge or whatever, or their apron, we hand it over, we may do a charge or two, but we're here to assist him to do to go in with him and assist him.

SPEAKER_01 29:50

Okay, yeah, okay. So that's a very important job. So you're basically his assistant.

SPEAKER_03 29:53

So you're pretty much because a master would have the deacon and the wardens are are his assistants or officers. For a for a grandmaster, it's pretty typically us.

SPEAKER_00 30:03

Right.

SPEAKER_01 30:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 30:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 30:05

And so you've been in that role now for how long have you been? Three years. It's a three-year term.

SPEAKER_03 30:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:11

Yeah. And so what are you are you what are you looking at doing? Are you going to continue that role or what are your future with the Grand Lodge?

SPEAKER_03 30:19

This October, it's every October when they install the Grand Lodge offices. And my term comes to an end this uh this year. Uh here in Christchurch is when they're having the big communication this October. And um, I'm not taking on a role in Grand Lodge this year. I'm stepping back a bit because at this point I haven't got the time commitment to do anything further in Grand Lodge.

SPEAKER_01 30:43

So, yeah, just to clarify that, you've got your your your normal lodge, which is Sumner Humaninity. Less, yes. And you're in the Grand Lodge, so that's something on top of your everyday lodge, and then you go and do other bits and pieces. So there's the time constraint. So there's a bit more, a bit more time involved. So you're going to step back from the Grand Lodge? Yes. Okay.

Charity Work That Reaches Everyone

SPEAKER_03 31:04

However, I always feel because I let I love Freemasonry and I want to give things back as a Freemason um to the community uh at large. So I've joined the Canterbury Um charitable trust, the Freemasons Charitable Trust.

SPEAKER_01 31:21

Oh wow. Yes. Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 31:22

So I just joined that last month and I'll be attending my first meeting this month.

SPEAKER_01 31:28

Wow. And so you're looking at doing and getting involved in some charitable uh projects? Yes. Have you got any in mind?

SPEAKER_03 31:35

No, because what happens the way the charitable trust works is the different lodges put an application because they themselves may get from their own community. Because remember, there's about 13 lodges here in the Christchurch area, Canterbury area. So they're geographically located in different parts, with the exception now, since we've got the Masonic Center, some of them meet here. So there could be local community people asking for uh, you know, funds or or help. And so they put in an application to their own lodge. Their own lodge may not have the funds, so that's when they put an application to the Canary Masonic charities.

SPEAKER_01 32:11

Right, okay.

SPEAKER_03 32:12

So what we do as a committee, and that's what I'll be doing from next month, is the application's coming, a panel of us, the five or six of us, review it, and when we meet, we decide of the five or six, which ones should we fund and how much to what tune? If that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 32:30

Yeah, so that's a really massive thing for the community. And so uh this would be one of the things that we're trying to uh let people know about Freemasonry and to sort of to pull down those uh negative connotations that we actually provide the community with a lot of a lot of assistance.

SPEAKER_03 32:49

Right. For example, the chair, the Canterbury Charity, Masonic Charities Trust, they do the car parking for the netball and collect money. It's a gold coin donation, or people buy a season's pass with us. So I think that generates about $30,000 or $40,000 a year. Wow. And then we've got money in the bank, which generates interest. Over Christmas, we go to the shopping malls, not all shopping malls, but see the Honby Mall, for example. Yep. And we do the Christmas wrapping, so we get money from that. Um and then we give things back like the Special Olympics where we may help out.

SPEAKER_01 33:23

And that's coming up this year in Christchurch, I believe, as well.

SPEAKER_03 33:26

Yes, it is in November.

SPEAKER_01 33:28

In November, brilliant.

SPEAKER_04 33:29

We're doing uh trial games at the moment. That's correct. Played one the other week. Oh, did you? A lot of fun. How'd you go? Um We lost. A lot of fun. They really appreciated it. Yeah, they're very happy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:43

Wonderful. So there's quite a bit of money in the Canterbury Charities Trust, you know. So money's been given, for example, to the Westpac helicopter.

SPEAKER_01 33:51

Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_03 33:53

Women's refuge was a big one for the last few years. School lunches. Apart from that, there are much smaller ones, like a few thousand dollars here and there, to families that are in trouble.

SPEAKER_01 34:04

And so if anyone's in ever any need in the community out there that are listening, how would they be able to access or have a look or how would they be able to know?

SPEAKER_03 34:14

There is a website for the Can Reese Masonic Charities Trust. In addition, if they know someone as a lodge member, if there's a lodge if they can find out, um, they could approach one of them and apply or ask.

SPEAKER_01 34:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 34:28

I think the uh the I'll know more about it once I'm in the official.

SPEAKER_01 34:32

Yeah, I think the New Zealand Freemasons website has got uh has got a little bit on it, but I'm I'm not too sure.

SPEAKER_03 34:39

They do, but that's mainly for the whole overall the New Zealand um Freemasons charity, which is a little bit separate, because that tends to be more for university scholarships.

SPEAKER_01 34:49

Oh, so we also uh sponsor the university students as well, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 34:52

Yes, we do. You've got to apply and you've got to be a little bit of an outstanding student, I guess. And um think of about 40, 30 or 40 uh scholarships, so to speak, for university, which is over five or six thousand dollars a year. It's quite considerable. Wow. And it's purely based on merit, even though we are male organization, a men-only organization, I'd say 70% or close to 60 to 70 percent of the scholarships go to women.

SPEAKER_01 35:20

Is that because women are brainier? No comment. You can edit that. Edit that.

SPEAKER_03 35:25

Sorry, that was uh that was uh No, it's purely based on it's purely based on merit. If the women's application is better, so be it. What I meant is it doesn't discriminate, it's right.

SPEAKER_01 35:34

Okay. So it's not just going to males, it's not just going to Freemasons, it's going to females or anyone who is worthy of that assistance. So that's brilliant.

SPEAKER_03 35:42

And in addition to that, I think the national body also provides, I'm just gonna say well over half a million anyway, towards medical research, generally to deal with with things like heart disease, uh stomach cancers, um, Alzheimer's, anything to do with, you know, perhaps an older person's illness, so to speak, because I don't know why, but that's what it's been historically. So quite a bit of money is spent or provided to these universities or medical schools for research into these areas.

SPEAKER_01 36:13

Wow, that's amazing. And that's really good for our listeners who didn't know that that uh, you know, there we are trying to do good. Yes. And it's not just uh it's not just to our fellow brethren that we do this, it's actually for the wider community.

SPEAKER_03 36:25

The wider community. And that's why you've also got the local, like the Canterbury one that's purely for Canterbury, the one that I'm going to be part of.

SPEAKER_01 36:31

Right. Okay, and so that sounds like an exciting venture. Yes, it is. Yes, it is. Wow. And so could you tell me what would be what's your most memorable moment during your Fremasonic journey? Yeah.

Favourite Moments And Hard Lessons

SPEAKER_03 36:45

There's a couple of them, some positive and some not so positive. Okay, let me reframe that. Because memories can be good, good. You know, I think one of the positive, more exciting ones was when I first became master at Lodge Sumner. It was quite exciting, you know, being going through the different positions within the lodge and then finally becoming master.

SPEAKER_00 37:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:08

Very nervous at the time because you had to be the district grandmaster and they tell you what to do and what you expected to know, and blah, blah, blah. You get a bit nervous. And um, I remember I may have cooked for like 48 hours over a three-day time frame. My wife helped quite a bit because at the time, like I said, it was very monocultural Christchurch. And I'm talking about even this could have been when I first became master, maybe in the early 2000s. So we decided to put this fabulous Indian meal on. Yum. Yeah, so we did a biryani, which is like a rice dish with meat, right? Beef and lamb, we had two different dishes and a vegetarian one, um, cooked in yogurt and spices. Oh, yum. And we had Indian love cake as a dessert, which my wife made. And uh, I had a couple of other Indian dishes as well, and a couple of non-Indian dishes because I knew some people possibly couldn't handle it. So you bought the mince pies. But spent a couple of days or more cooking because I had to cook a huge amount, and I probably for my installation would have had close to 100 people. So largest back. I wanted to make sure no one went hungry.

SPEAKER_01 38:15

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 38:16

It's a very Indian thing to do because you don't want people to go hungry.

SPEAKER_01 38:19

Of course, yeah, it's wonderful.

SPEAKER_03 38:20

And um and obviously bought the literary couple of few bottles of scotch as well, which I meant to get on special or travel. So it was a it's a big nut really stays in my mind because it was a lot of effort getting there and very nervous on the night being master for the first time.

SPEAKER_04 38:36

So I think it's fair to say that your wife supports you on your Masonic career through and through, yeah. Well, yes.

SPEAKER_03 38:43

To a large extent. The reason why I say well, yes, is my wife, my mother, they're all very strong feminists, and so are my daughters. But they don't like this whole concept of uh male-only organization. However, they understand what it's about.

SPEAKER_00 39:00

Right.

SPEAKER_03 39:01

Right. We don't tell them the secret, they know what it's about, and they love the fact we do charitable work.

SPEAKER_01 39:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:07

And even though our music teacher told my wife that we are devil worshippers, she just laughed it off. She knows we're not that. Yes, exactly. Exactly. So, no, they're supportive to a large extent. I think the only, but then when they sometimes hear the ritual, what happened? They go, seriously, no wonder women don't want to join.

SPEAKER_01 39:27

So I said, There is Freemason, uh woman Freemasonry though, as well.

SPEAKER_03 39:33

And uh I think again, it's not for everybody. Yes. Well, my mother's deciphered, being a she loves cryptic crosswords, and some just deciphered my dad's ritual book ages ago, put to a large extent, not all of it, but to a large extent. And my youngest daughter is she's a lawyer, but she always she did theatre, so she's she's very good at remembering lines and things. And I'm not great, so I used to practice with her, but obviously not the words that are blanked out. And sadly, she knows the lines better than I did after reading it once. And I mean, what?

SPEAKER_05 40:08

What?

SPEAKER_01 40:10

I think my cat knows it off my heart.

SPEAKER_03 40:12

Yes, I heard it so many so many times. So that's the memory, but um and not so nice memory going back again in the 90s, you know, when I first joined the Lodge. Um, there were guys like Roger who are very, very good with their ritual. There were many members of Grand Lodge and senior members who were good, but they were stickless, you couldn't make a mistake. So that made sometimes the environment very stressful because you think, oh gosh, did I forget this? And you get all nervous if you know what I mean. You're not as relaxed. Yeah. So um, so those were the not so nice things. But as a summer lodge, we tended to become more relaxed later on because we did tell the older members, hey, you're preventing young people from coming on board. The future of any organization is it's young people. You know, us oldies, you're there and move on. It's really we need to encourage the young people if we make it too stressful for them. And I've always remembered the uh reminded the older members, we're a not-for-profit, we are voluntary. You want to make people want to come there.

SPEAKER_01 41:16

And that's a good point. So, in your opinion, what's the biggest challenges that facing Freemasonry then?

Keeping Freemasonry Relevant For Youth

SPEAKER_03 41:22

I think a lot of people are timed for for a variety of reasons, you know, so they prioritize what they do. I said it's just not Freemasonry. I said most clubs are losing membership as a result because people like the flexibility, you know. We grew up in a generation where you had to plan and do things. I think modern generation, because of technology, they want things now. Or they want to stream and binge watch their TV program, whereas we had to work once a week and wait for the next episode to turn up.

SPEAKER_01 41:51

Yeah, right. Or it's like watching your VCR. You had to rewind it and you've got to do all that stuff.

SPEAKER_03 41:55

You know, nowadays it's you don't, yeah, you don't do that. No, so things are a little bit different. But to get people into Freemasonry, I believe, um, we've got to look at things like that. What would bring people in, maybe some of the social aspect, you know, just not ritual alone. We've got to make it in a sense that it's got to be a special organization, it's got to be just a little bit more than just turning up for a lodge meeting once in a while doing a bit of ritual. And that's for something like, you know, doing more for the community. Yep. And I think that's been missing. I mean, like I said, I've been in New Zealand 40 years, and I've found people are doing less and less for the community because either they're too busy and most people don't know their neighbours. When I first came in, came here, we'd know our neighbors.

SPEAKER_01 42:36

Oh, yeah. I remember growing up and that was the big thing. Yeah. And now I moved, I moved back from up north and I came and I um I made the effort to have a look at my neighbours, and I'm pretty sure they looked at me sideways thinking, who's this guy? Yeah. I'm like, but you gotta know your neighbours for my daughter's sake. For yeah, you too. It's just one of those things.

SPEAKER_03 42:54

Because I remember, you know, being a student and having a car and things conk out, and you don't necessarily have all the tools and be silly, they're trying to figure it out, and some old guy from the next go, ah, what are you doing? Yeah, they'd come across and oh, you need this, and so I haven't got the tools for that. Oh, come on, but they give you a hand. Yeah, you knew one another, people helped one another out a lot more than nowadays.

SPEAKER_01 43:15

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 43:16

Yeah, you know, and why is it is that because it's a transient world or I don't know, there's a lot more to do because you've got, you know, your whole world is now in your living room. Because those days we had two channels on TV and the goodbye, good night kiwi would turn up at 10 o'clock at night.

SPEAKER_01 43:30

Yes, showing our vintage. Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_03 43:33

You know, there was less to do. There weren't that many cafes and restaurants, you know.

SPEAKER_01 43:37

That would all shut at the midnight.

SPEAKER_03 43:39

And money was tight, so you had to do a lot of the stuff yourself.

SPEAKER_01 43:43

Yeah, I remember my mother making she had a sewing room, so we had a lot of stuff that was sewn. We had a lot of knitting, Ninnas did knitting, and you know I think it's we looked at that actually, the wife and I, and it was cheaper for us to go down to Kmart or warehouse and buy a hat or something rather than getting The yarn of wool and knitting it. Yep. Yeah. So we definitely have changed. Do you think Freemasonry can survive the change, or does it have to change?

SPEAKER_03 44:11

It has to change. It has to change. It doesn't have to change its core values, but certainly has to change amongst its peripheral values and cater for the younger market because the youth, whether you like it or not, are our future because that's life, that's nature, you know?

SPEAKER_01 44:26

That's a gimme.

SPEAKER_04 44:27

And you mentioned uh members leaving before. Now, is that just the older members or you saying younger members trial and leave?

SPEAKER_03 44:36

Yes, younger members trial and leave because they're common. Because I used I'll go back again. Um my background when I did engineering and then I did a master's in business, but I ended up doing a lot of research and had my own research company, mainly market research and talking to people. So that thing never left me, sort of thing. So when younger members in our lodge or other lodges leave, I'd usually talk to them and find out, hey, what are you really unhappy with or what could we do better? Sort of thing, just for feedback. And most of them left because they came and they said, Oh, we do a bit of ritual that put pressure on someone for learning lines, for example, in charges. And I said, Hey, there's no pressure, you can do it in your own time. But they never they thought that it was expected that they were going to do it. And they felt they wanted to be part of something that built was doing something for the community, and they didn't see us doing it. They just thought it was all to do with ritual. Like we come into a room, sure, we do a ritual, and then we socialize for five minutes afterwards, the refectory or whatever, and then people are gone. Yeah. Yep. So they wanted more than that. And I think what kept Sumner going is a lot of like-minded people. We were a group of friends that joined when I joined with the older group, and then Michael joined after, even though he worked for Roger. And because we're such good mates, he said, Oh, you're John, I better bloody join then. So he did. Then he got a whole lot of his friends. So there was that similar age group, people that knew one another. So it's a good time to catch up once a month, in addition to us catching up otherwise, you know. So if the older guys want to talk their own stuff, there we we had our own group, so to speak.

SPEAKER_00 46:15

Yep. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 46:16

And I think that kept it going. And I think some of the young ones coming in, they just found it a bit of pressure, and they go, What for? They didn't see the community aspect of it. We never went out and did things for people. You know, maybe we should. Like going and doing we've got an elderly person in our lot, for example, we could go out and do their garden for them or help them out to do things. We don't do those things anymore. Those are the things, sort of things I'd love to encourage and get people going out and doing.

SPEAKER_01 46:44

Right. Well, you heard it here first. Let's get more involved. I think uh I think you're right. I think also they um they do come in with an a preconceived idea.

SPEAKER_00 46:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:54

And that gets shot down pretty quickly. And it's it's there to be seen, but they've got to kind of have the the the mentor, the the the somebody with them to be able to say, hey, look, you know, this is how we can do it. Or they you know, I remember being young Mason and I was always terrified of of well not of I guess I was a bit I was a bit of a bit nervous of saying my piece. You know, these are these are older distinguished gentlemen, they've been around the trappings and they're you know they were they were quite successful in business and all that. And who am I to say, you know, maybe we could do this, or I don't know what I'm doing. So you kind of just kept quiet. Yeah, and I think that they need to be heard. And I think we need to listen to them. Not everything, not every idea they've got is great, yeah. Like mine. Not all of mine are great, some of them are even better than great, but some of them absolutely terrible. But let's yeah, let's give them a bit of a voice because they are they are voice and purpose.

SPEAKER_03 47:50

So you know, when we talk about maybe the community thing's gone, but look at the student volunteer army after the earthquakes. Yes, so what I'm saying is the youth, yeah. The youth need a purpose, is what I'm saying. Well, most people do need a purpose. Yeah, they're just not gonna turn up for the sake of turning up. Well, you've got to give them that, you've got to give them that purpose. And so if you've got to drive them and and that's what I'm saying, there's so many things, initiatives we could do with a community that don't cost necessarily money, just a little bit of human effort. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:15

Well, that's not what they say is they say that's worth more than if uh if you were to give uh an employee a pay rise, it's actually worth more to give them the recognition rather than the money. Although the money will help, but that more, you know, they'd value more being valued and being recognized by their work effort than just uh, oh here goes a couple of a couple of more bucks.

SPEAKER_03 48:35

Well, that's the thing I want to look at with the charities as well. I'm sure they're doing an an excellent job, but also look at when we give funding, how is that gonna involve the community as well, rather than just giving money?

SPEAKER_01 48:46

Yeah, something, you know. You don't want to chunk money at a problem because that's just uh yeah, right. Yeah, yeah. And so whereabouts do you see yourself in the future with regards to fair masonry? Is that really you? You're gonna be looking at the the charitable side of things to be able to engage with community, to pick to that's where I really see myself, you know, yeah, more in the charities.

SPEAKER_03 49:06

Pretty much like what Die Everly's doing. He's doing a great job. He's the one that Orange uh organized the uh car parking.

SPEAKER_01 49:14

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 49:14

Yeah. And I've got a lot of business contacts as well, like him. So perhaps drawing on all of those and seeing where we can get some funding, but more importantly, how we allocate that funding to involve the community. I think New Zealand's got this, it's a great country and great people. We need to get back to those days of building a community. Yes. I think we're becoming this is around the world, there's no criticism of New Zealand necessarily, but around the world, people are becoming more insular. Yeah. They're not doing their neighbors, not doing things for other people. You know, we need to get back to that because when my kids were young, you know, as a parent, you you went into the schools, you did for their fundraising, for the school fairs, all the sort of things and becoming a thing of the past. People aren't helping out or doing things. Yeah, it's not a community anymore. It's more of like you're saying, well, there isn't certain parts, but we'd like to we'd love to see a lot more of it. Yeah. And I said it's it's not a criticism because people are very busy nowadays, and then they've got the whole world in their living room with their social media, television and things. So people get caught up with that, kids. And also the other big change in New Zealand, but I guess it's worldwide, is uh you need two incomes in a household given the high rents and mortgages. So perhaps that other person isn't at home to help out, you know, with the everyday thing. So both people are there after work and it gets stressful and it's difficult.

SPEAKER_01 50:32

You become time poor, is what I'm saying. Time poor and also money poor because it is it is actually quite a it is quite rough out there. And so that's why it would be really good for us to be able to say that we've got funding for anyone that's on hardship, which is which is a really great thing. So, what would you be your advice for any young, any any young lad who is looking at Freemasonry and looking at joining? What would be your advice to that person?

SPEAKER_03 50:55

My advice to that person is Freemasonry, what it does, it helps an individual grow. It makes you, I believe, more compassionate, more charitable. You don't you get into a group of people who are diverse, it's getting more diverse, you know, both an age group in the way people see things. So it gives you a different outlook. It's quite easy in a country with a very small population to um to be quite instantly think your way of thinking is the only way or the right way of thinking. Is it not? No. Sadly, sorry, Ruben. You've been told. So I think it helps a person grow that way. Yeah. Because we all come from different backgrounds, it's always good to see.

SPEAKER_01 51:42

It is good, and it's always good to see the gentleman that honestly. I would never really see myself sitting down in a room otherwise. And it's it's it's just it's a privilege, and you've got to I've got to remember that different isn't wrong.

SPEAKER_03 51:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:59

And we learn from that. And as soon as you learn, that's when you realize, and that's what the tolerance is. I'm like, hey, I probably wouldn't have sat next to you, but now that I am, let's I'll get to learn you. Who you are who are you? What what makes me not want to sit next to you next time? And then you learn more about yourself. So so you're saying that there is no great golden devil that we worship and we get the keys to the city and we all. I'm still waiting if there is. I know, right? I wish, I wish it were.

SPEAKER_03 52:26

But um, no, it's just a great organization, I think, and it can get better, but we need to look at what we need to do as an organization for Freemasons to get more members in, you know, and keep them interested. Do you have any other do you have any ideas as to how that could I did have a few ideas and um I did bring it up with some of the senior members, and they said we're not a Lions club, and I said no, we're not, we're different. But in saying that, we perhaps also need to integrate and look at because Alliance do a lot of charitable work, right? We can but we are different. We have more traditional organizations with certain values and so on. But we need to integrate where where the world is going, and that's what people want. They want to be engaged.

SPEAKER_04 53:11

I agree.

SPEAKER_03 53:12

You know, they want a little bit more, and for us to say no, we're not going to do that, perhaps, isn't the best way going forwards, in my opinion, anyway. Yeah, I mean, you know, you I'm a marketer, so I mean in the marketing you're locked up. So for me, making sure that people are happy and meeting their needs is a very important aspect of the well at the end of the day, like you're saying, information is key.

SPEAKER_01 53:35

And if something is working, yeah, and it's working for that organization, we could take some cues from that. Correct. That's not to say that we're going to change everything about. No, no, no. Core values have to remain the same. Changing how and how we can interact and how we can do better is you know, I mean, that's why you listen to both sides of the argument, isn't it? So that you can learn about everything.

SPEAKER_03 53:58

And sadly, like most organisations, our memberships dwindling. So that's something, I mean, that's telling us something, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 54:05

Is it dwindling in New Zealand or is that a hugely New Zealand?

SPEAKER_03 54:09

We're down from 45,000 to just under 5,000.

SPEAKER_01 54:12

So what about in India? Is it getting growing? So it's growing.

SPEAKER_03 54:15

Because of the social aspect.

SPEAKER_01 54:17

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03 54:18

And so a lot of Philippines join as well because so they can get together as a community, meet some people. And um, all of us should make more effort in you know, meeting our brethren who may struggle with the language, perhaps, so they're not that confident, but we should make that effort of sitting with them, making them feel more welcome. Of course. And that's something to all of us do. We're more comfortable with people that we can communicate better with. And maybe we should be put out of our comfort zone and then welcome more people.

SPEAKER_01 54:49

Wonderful. Wonderful.

Masonica Alerts And Closing Thoughts

SPEAKER_01 54:51

Look, I've really enjoyed our chat today. Um, I thank you very, very much for agreeing to come on and being uh, I think second or third victim, I mean guest on board. Um my pleasure. Uh and that's good. All the best with uh your future endeavors.

SPEAKER_03 55:07

Uh and I think so you're saying in October is when you'll be stepping back and you'll be looking at doing more of a charitable charitable, but also helping, like that's what I was talking earlier to the other very wordful master in terms of taking of the role of you know, um, with regalia, things that he's done for a long time, and he's getting on an edge, so he wanted someone else to do it. And and I've got the system at work, so for me, with a little bit of effort, I can help out, you know, because people need to get their regalia and so on for Grand Lodge. Yep. Some of the admin boring admin stuff.

SPEAKER_01 55:42

Good. So you're at the helm of all of that. And so look forward for the uh Masonic future. And um, I'm glad that we had this. Thank you very much. Thank you very much for coming on board. Thank you for coming on. I'd just like to uh conclude our podcast with a couple of Masonic alerts. Uh, if you're not aware, that's where I get all of my juicy information from. The great Masonic app. Uh just need to go online, have a look at Masonica, and uh you'll be able to access the uh the app. And so I'm just gonna I'm just gonna uh tell you folk what at the moment are some of the uh alerts that are on there. Uh the first one is the Masonic name badge, uh correct logos for the Grand Lodge of New Zealand. Uh for the new roles that brethren are being appointed into, it is important that the correct Grand Lodge of New Zealand logo is used. And so the authorized logo is the square and compass without the G in it. So if you've got a G in it, maybe you want to relook that because that's not the official New Zealand Grand Lodge logo. Uh there are some trusted providers, uh, which is Elite Designs Masonica and the Masonic Exchange. So please check out your uh your your um logo, your logos for the Grand Lodge in New Zealand without the G. Uh there's also, I think in our podcast earlier on we were talking about university, there is actually uh the Lodge of the University Lodge of Wellington, number 487 Constitution. Uh dedication and installation will be on Saturday, the 16th of August in 2025. It's a unique Masonic event occurring on Saturday, uh the 16th of August at the Wellington Masonic Centre in uh in Wellesley Boutique Hotel. Uh and it's an initiative from the Grand Lodge Membership and Growth Committee, the first university lodge in New Zealand, and it'll be constituted and dedicated. The University Lodge of Wellington number 48 sorry 478478. Uh will be followed by the installation of the founded Foundation Master and Investiture of its offices. Uh if you go on Masonic, you can have a look at the the uh program for that. There is also the Lewis pin, which is still available for purchase. Uh that's the son of a Freemason. And a Freemason may wear this lapel pin, it's a Lewis pin, which basically means that you are the son of a uh of a uh a man who was, so your father was a uh a Mason. Uh they cost $10 plus posters and packaging, and you can get that if you have a look on uh uh if you have a look on the Masonica app. Uh and of course the registrations are still open for the grand installation, the grand communication 2025, which is being held in Christchurch. So don't miss out and don't forget to put your partners' details there as well. Uh and we have also at the end of this year the national summer games of the Special Olympics New Zealand. So they're still wanting lots of volunteers. So if you can get your lodge behind you or go on individually, have a look at the Masonic app, Masonica app, have a look through there, or go onto the Grand Lodge of New Zealand app uh website and um yeah, have a look on there and volunteer your time. It'll be a great event, and all these things are happening in Christchurch. So yeah, that's the uh latest event.

SPEAKER_02 59:15

Thanks for listening to the Masonic mic. The views expressed by our hosts and guests are their own and don't necessarily reflect those of Grand Lodge or any affiliated body. Before you go, be sure to download the Masonica app to stay connected and support the show for more Masonic resources, blogs, and podcasts. Remember to subscribe, like and share. And until next time, stay square.