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SPEAKER_00 0:17

This episode of The Masonic Mic is proudly brought to you by Masonica, Connecting Freemasons. Masonica is the essential app for New Zealand Freemasons, bringing the craft together in one digital space. Stay connected with the latest news, updates, events, and more right at your fingertips. Download Masonica today and join the growing network of brethren across New Zealand. And now, welcome to the Masonic Mike, where we tune into the frequency of Freemasonry, sharing insights, stories, and conversations that illuminate the craft.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

Welcome to the Masonic Mic, Masonic Frequency on Frequency. I'm Dan Painter and I'm here with Ruben. Greetings, Dan. How would you be? I'm very good. How are you? Excellent. I'm good, thanks. We've got a very special episode today, because uh today we have a guest, very worshipful brother Graham Martin. He's a past grand lecturer, and he is also a right excellent companion for the Royal Arch.

SPEAKER_03 1:16

That's correct, Dan. That's very correct. But I um the titles, you know, I'd like to just be called Graham. Thank you. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

Well, for the purposes of this podcast, we'll call you just Graham.

SPEAKER_03 1:28

That's it. Great.

Family Roots And Joining In 1991

SPEAKER_01 1:30

So, what brings you to Freemasonry? This is the big story that we ask most people uh when they arrive on our podcast. Um, give us a story.

SPEAKER_03 1:38

Well, I think um it goes back a long way. It goes back to my grandfather and my relationship with my grandfather, who um was a Mason, and also so was my father. And so consequently, consequently, I sort of derived a sort of a good impression about Freemasonry, basically because I had such a wonderful relationship with my father, and to a certain extent a bit of a distant relationship, but still respectful, with my grandfather. And I said to myself one day, I said, you know, these guys seem to be pretty good blokes. Pretty good, you know, this have been um part of my life over the last 20 or 30 years at the time. And I thought it wonder what it is that actually makes them what they are. And of course, the common theme comes through, they were both Freemasons.

SPEAKER_04 2:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:29

Yeah. And that that sort of um set me on a path. And it wasn't until after my father died, which was unfortunate, but quite early, and I decided, well, let's follow through what's Freemasonry is about. And I made a few contacts with the local Freemasons out at where I live, and they with first of all thought it was rather unusual. Somebody out of the public had gone to the library and and looked up a phone number and uh and uh taken that phone number and um rung them and said, Well, look, I'm interested in joining. It wasn't them inviting me, uh I I actually invited myself.

SPEAKER_04 3:06

And just for the listeners who are listening, who are who are not of the same vintage, you picked up that he said uh phone book. Yeah. So we're talking we're talking a few digits um in the past there, aren't we? Yeah, we are.

SPEAKER_03 3:18

We're talking actually, we're talking 1991. So that was that was really when I took uh took my time to actually follow through. And when I said phone book, um in some ways it's the library. Uh the local library provided me with the information, the contact phone number. So in actual fact, the phone number was a f was actually a library. Phone book was a library.

SPEAKER_04 3:40

Yeah, sure. Yeah, but it's not like yeah, like the traditional I just went on Facebook and went on the internet. So we're talking a different era, completely different era.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

So you need you needed to do some research in order to make that first Masonic step.

SPEAKER_03 3:52

Yes, well, funnily enough, I'd inherited a lot of material from my father and my grandfather. And um both of well, my grandfather had been a grand lecturer like I was, and uh he had left a lot of material behind, which I inherited. So in actual fact, I you I knew quite a bit about it.

SPEAKER_04 4:11

Was there a few of those secrets in there you'd already known?

SPEAKER_03 4:15

Well, yeah, you see, this that leads into another another explanation. But there's nothing I read that I couldn't I well, I would have felt that it was quite okay for anybody in the public to read. Yeah, um, it was about his life, his beliefs, um, his moral uh standards, his view about life, and his view about his fellow mankind. So I I read most of this material and I thought, Blimey, that's good. That's good, that's me.

SPEAKER_04 4:45

And so is this in New Zealand?

SPEAKER_03 4:47

Yes, it's New Zealand, right?

SPEAKER_04 4:49

Okay, in the South Island, or are we talking about the North Islands?

SPEAKER_03 4:52

Well he he he uh my grandfather was out of um Dunedin and my uh myself uh and my father, of course, uh well, we're in Christchurch. Right, okay. So uh so anyway, that kind of material, once you read it, you start realizing just

Self-Improvement And Living With Yourself

SPEAKER_03 5:10

exactly what the message is about masonry. What is the message? Oh, the message really, I to me anyway, is to learn about yourself, your values, what makes you up, what your history is. Take a look at that and ask yourself, can I do better?

SPEAKER_01 5:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:31

And that really motivated me to join Masonry because I felt that at that stage in my life I had learned a lot of stuff at school. I'd learned a lot of stuff in in business, I'd been a had a career path. What was missing, however, was this sort of feeling of connection with other people at a same level as myself. When I say level, I'm talking at the same understanding of myself about what the values were that were important in life. And Freemasonry started to uh connect with me because I suddenly saw how I could actually establish my own standards, my own feeling about what was my duty and what my own uh future was. And it's not about delegating it or being told what to do by someone else, it's about your own personal standards, your own reflection, your own thoughts about things. And it takes time for that to develop. It's not going to happen overnight. And I do see a lot of Masons today join Freemasonry for a number of reasons, but haven't yet found out that Masonry is about self-improvement. It's about reviewing yourself, it's about trying to trying to make yourself the a better person.

SPEAKER_01 6:52

So would you say that Freemasonry helps you to focus or hone in on your own established set of values?

SPEAKER_04 7:00

Yeah. And to build on, give you those, give you the building blocks to be able to then use those to become a better person.

SPEAKER_03 7:07

It's funny enough, in the early days of my career, I used to teach a thing called business ethics. Such a thing? Hang on. Is there such a thing as business ethics? I think there is. I think there is. I think there is. I think it is that you have to live with yourself. And in the end, uh whatever actions you take, and you have to ask yourself, were those actions right? And one of the factors that I used to use uh as a judge as to whether your behavior, one's behaviour is ethical or moral, was basically to say to yourself, Is there a respected person in your life? Is there a person that you have that you said, wow, that that person I admire? Now often it's your father or mother, often it's your grandfather or grandmother, or often it's some other person that you may have come into contact with during your life. My attitude would be if I was to look at my own behavior, my own decisions, my own way of life, my own values, and I would say to that person, this is what I did, and this is what I stand for, would that person be proud of me?

SPEAKER_01 8:18

Right.

SPEAKER_03 8:19

Would that person actually say, bang on, mate? You're right. And I suppose that has driven me for the last 20 or 30 years. And would I be proud to say to my father, yes, I did this or I did that, or my grandfather? And the answer is I think at this moment in my life, I I would be proud. I'm not arrogant, I'm not going to say that I'm always right. I make mistakes, however, we all make mistakes. It's a matter of living with your mistakes and not making that mistake a second time.

SPEAKER_04 8:55

Well said. So for what about for those who don't have that who don't have that immediate family?

SPEAKER_03 9:03

Ah, that's a good point. Well, you can substitute the so-called brotherhood. The so-called people who you meet in life that have got that little bit extra. There's something about them. It's usually service for others. But masonry is a hard thing. It's not it's not something to be taken lightly. When you take up masonry, it's not going to be a smooth path. It's not going to be something easily achieved. It's going to be done in stages, and you're going to get awarded stages of advancement, and that's called an entered apprentice or a fellow craft or a master mason. And each one of those achievements is usually marked by receiving uh an accolade. When I say an accolade, I don't mean clapping. What I mean by that is you receive a handshake when everybody knows that it's supposed to be a handshake, you know, the Freemasons have gone. Yeah, there's many handshakes. I know 18 of them. 18?

SPEAKER_04 10:05

I know 18 of them. You're still using your hand or what's going on there? You're a handy man. Which one do you use, or do you use them all at once?

SPEAKER_03 10:14

It's more than just your your palm of your hand, of course. We don't get into up to anything silly or whatever. But the point about what I'm getting at is that handshake, um, and we're also given what they call a word, that those two things together mark your progress as you go through masonry, and you're not going to get that um progress recognition until you've done the work. Right. So you've got to put the work in.

SPEAKER_04 10:42

You've got to put the work in.

SPEAKER_03 10:43

And if you get it the easy path, somebody comes up and says to you, you want to know what all it's all about, what I can tell you, and I can show you, I can I can tell you everything. You're not going to get it. That's cheating. That is just, it's just, it's not, it's this easy way. It's the path that I didn't take. And I don't think I'd recommend it to anyone because in the end, you need to be awarded uh progress. It's and of course, in the old days, Masons of the what they call operative Masons, these are the ones that actually built cathedrals with a chisel, a mallet, and a number of other tools. These real masons didn't or couldn't often read or write. And so consequently, they were given a handshake and they were given a word, and that set their pay rate, that set their seniority, that set their learning. And as you learn through Masonry, you're given this recognition, a new handshake and a new word to recognize your increasing knowledge, your increasing flow of uh information that you've been given. And in the realization that you don't know everything, we're all here to learn. Learning never stops. The day you stop learning, well, you know, you just don't know what you don't know. And uh you get you get left behind. So Masonry is about continuous learning, and that's what I've found, and uh I've enjoyed it immensely.

SPEAKER_01 12:11

That's something we're trying to achieve on this very podcast is uh by speaking to gentlemen like yourself, as we're trying to learn something different. We know that uh everyone has different perspectives and different ideas, and and that that's what we want to learn from. Of course, of course.

SPEAKER_04 12:29

So can we go back to the beginning of that story where you were talking about your very beginnings? Um what so your father and grandfather inspired you because of because of how you looked at them, how you viewed them. So what happened? Can I you joined a lodge, you you when you went to the library, you got the contact, and then you said, G'day, I wanna I wanna join. Like, who on heck is this? Well, first of first of

The Year Of Vetting And First Degree Impact

SPEAKER_04 13:00

all, I had to wait a year. So you made contact and this and then talk me through that process.

SPEAKER_03 13:06

Yeah, well, I made contact with uh you know with the secretary of the particular lodge, yeah, and I said, Yes, I would like to join. And of course, at that stage you said, well, if you've got some people that you know, you know that you already know uh Masons. And I I said, Well, yes, I did my father, but unfortunately he's died. And so, but there are other people out there that know me. And uh because in those days they were they were particularly careful to make sure that people um were not, shall we say, undesirable, you know, meaning they had in in some ways disgraced uh themselves or or in the situation that um they wouldn't make good members. And so they were all vetted. And I had to wait for a year because, as I said, nobody knew me that well. And after that year was up and people spoke in my favour, I was admitted to Freemasonry and I went through my first degree. And after the after the night of my first degree, I have to admit, it it's there's so much information that you're given, so much um feeling put into it. It's it's about sincerity, it's about promise, it's about we use the word fidelity, and it's an interesting word. Um that that that really that word means that you you just do what you say you're going to do. You you you follow it through. You don't just mouth off words or or say things, you actually mean them. And I think when I went through that first night um when I was initiated uh as a um uh new member of the lodge, there was so much that you get, and it took so long for me to find out exactly what it meant. Have you found out? I found out to my satisfaction, but remember, it's probably being a bit selfish here. It's all about my satisfaction, it's about other people's satisfaction as well. And so, yes, if you were to ask that question on a on a selfish basis, I think I found a little bit of of a clue as to what it's about. It's taken a long time, it's taken a long time and a lot of consultation and a lot of reading, a lot of work, and I've formed in my view, in my view, what it's about for me. Now, I wouldn't say that I would prescribe that on anyone else.

SPEAKER_05 15:24

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 15:24

I'm just saying it's helped me. And it's helped me in times when things weren't easy, it's helped me to get resilient, it's helped me to be uh mindful of the fact that others need to be considered when in your actions you take, you have to think about other people as well. We are family oriented. Um, I have to consider uh, you know, the amount of time that I spend doing what I'm doing, but so do other people. They don't have to be Masons to do that. All I'm saying is that um Masonry to me reinforces the need to be family oriented first and then selfish to yourself second. And that's my viewpoint, and I've enjoyed my Masonic career so far, and uh I looked forward to many years to come. Do you reckon that there'll be anything out there like Freemasonry then? I think you remember I started off at the very beginning by saying Masonry is hard. I said that. Masonry is it's a constant challenge. Now, I don't want to decry other organizations, but I'm not sure that the same challenge would be present if I was to join some of other organizations. Yes, there's a social challenge, yes, there's a financial challenge. I'm sure there are other challenges that I don't know about. All I know is when I joined Freemasonry, I found that the challenge was there. It it gave me something that I had to work on constantly. It's you don't sit back and watch all the time. Why do Freemasons last 50, 60, 70 years as a Mason? That's a lot of talk. Why do they do that? And the answer I believe is because of the challenge. And if it was a bit simpler, a bit easier to become a Freemason, a bit easier to uh remain um committed to Freemasonry, I think we'd lose a lot. And um, you know, so therefore, what my job is is to is part of a past grand lecturer, was to basically try and explain my view, which I'm doing today on what Freemasonry is. Um and it's just so much that unfortunately, if I was to keep I would keep you here for the next three or four hours, maybe, uh, and then only um be a little drip in the bucket. So maybe you you've got another more important question that you want to ask.

SPEAKER_01 17:53

Oh not really, but um you you did uh mention uh before that you knew 18 different handshakes and masonry is hard in organization, so it's hard remembering them.

SPEAKER_03 18:06

Oh okay. I have stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 18:11

Um what I'm alluding to is uh side orders and things like that. Now I did mention at the start that you are a right excellent companion, but we're just calling you Graham today.

SPEAKER_03 18:21

That's good.

SPEAKER_01 18:21

Just Graham. Can you talk about it about the Royal Arch?

Royal Arch Explained For New Zealand

SPEAKER_01 18:25

Uh this is the first time we've discussed discussed it on this.

SPEAKER_03 18:28

Well, the Royal Arch is an extension of the craft degrees. The craft degrees are the blue degrees, or what they what you would call classic Freemasonry. Um it's the fourth to the through to the sixth level of um the degrees in Freemasonry. Um it's a path that in New Zealand that um is a wee bit different to some of the other um places in the world, for example, the UK. Um in New Zealand we have six degrees uh and they are all together collectively called the chapter. However, the fourth degree in Freemasonry is what they call the mark degree. And the mark degree is really understanding that you are responsible for your actions. And we have in we have in Masonry the concept of your Mason's mark. Now, if you look in the old cathedrals of the UK and I'm sure around the continent, you will find that the stones have on them a mark that was that identified who made that stone, who actually created that stone. And that mark is distinctive to that Mason, and he got paid because he made that particular stone. So as soon as he put that mark on his stone, he was saying, This is my standard, this is my uh understanding of what's needed, and this is my part in the foundation for this cathedral. But here's the but around his mark was always an equilateral triangle. And that equilateral triangle signified that his supervisor, his the his boss on the on the site actually agreed that this was up to standard, it was part of the design, it was part of the cathedral in the right place at the right time.

SPEAKER_04 20:19

So that would have been the boss's stamp of approval.

SPEAKER_03 20:21

This is stamp of approval. Right, yep, yep. You are responsible for your own actions. Everything inside of that. Inside of that, your mark represents what you believe is important in life. Yeah, right. Okay. So anyway, the mark degree is about this concept of establishing responsibility, being um not only of of yourself, but also being responsible responsible for others in in in a way. You're not taking over other people, you are just holding them to a standard. And um that's what the mark masonry is about. Now, this mark masonry you came out of the earlier degree. Remember, I mentioned the word fellowcraft. Yep. Well, mark masonry was the second half of the fellowcraft degree, and so it was taken away from the fellowcraft degree and made a a separate degree by itself. Why is that? Well, it's it's very long. I mean, you can imagine putting the two degrees together. By the time you work that, you're probably talking some hours. Oh, it'll be Sunday.

SPEAKER_04 21:22

So you start on a Friday and you'll be out on a Sunday.

SPEAKER_03 21:24

Yeah. So it was a pretty long, they're both long, well, not long degrees, but we'll put them together, they'd be too long.

SPEAKER_02 21:31

Right.

SPEAKER_03 21:31

And also remember, we're mixing concepts here. One is about education, which is the fellow craft. Yeah. The second part is the second part is about being responsible for what you know and what you do. And that's what you why you get awarded your Mason's mark. No other Mason can have your mark. So your mark is you get given a mark. Yes. Well, you choose a mark, and then it is entered in a register, um, and you. might say that if you wanted a particular mark you could actually say I want that as long as that mark is not being used by any other Mason you're fine. That's it.

SPEAKER_04 22:09

So going back to the so going back to the um the the builders and their marks yeah on the cathedrals and buildings is there a register for them yes oh there is every lodge or well I mean there are historically yeah historically you can you can actually view them.

SPEAKER_03 22:26

I've got I've got heaps of books with Mason's marks in them. Wow they weren't just necessarily uh their initials okay uh they could be but they didn't have you know there's a formula um and the it it could be um that you with you had to have more I'm just trying to remember I think you have to have more than three lines and you can't have a triangle okay okay everything else is is okay except a triangle can't be your boss you can't be your own boss can't be your own boss so okay so I think it's the minimum of three but I would have to check that sure yeah but they have to be odd numbers now please don't ask me why odd numbers you can have three five seven nine that sort of thing right but but not even numbers wow it was just a it was it was a custom that was adopted by Masons for some reason they could travel anywhere anywhere on continental Europe or Britain or Ireland and their mark would be registered at the local lodge and then once they were it was registered there they would prove their own status they would prove that they were a Master Mason or a fellowcraft or whatever and they would be paid accordingly

The Mark Degree And Owning Your Mark

SPEAKER_03 23:45

right on completion or is this a on completion of each stone of each stone did they Well they had to have the triangle around it before they were paid. Oh of course so you've got to say that wall then has got to be completed I'm not going to give you anything else I'll give you the I'll give you the design right here are the dimensions of the stone here are the sh here's the shape of the stone and here is the well the dimensions I've already mentioned but here's the here is the the general feel of where this particular stone is going. So there was a plan for each course or layer of stones in a building and each layer each stone was distinctive. So are you saying that each stone has got a mark on it well hang on so each part of I guess each part of that plan for that mason yeah would have had uh each stone done and so each mason would have done so if we've got to do the east wall or whatever sure then so that's in the olden days now I'm going to be a we're bit sort of revealing and yet I'm gonna hold back a bit in the in the olden days in the olden days we're talking you know 12th century 11th century 12th century 13th century later maybe even the 14th each um mason that worked on a on a work site would habitually put their mark on a stone so when people go to repair those particular buildings you will see never facing the public never face it was always facing inwards the mark was always facing inwards. So you never you never actually um it was not often revealed but it but often was just a blank stone you saw a stone but behind it of course it is mark or underneath it.

SPEAKER_04 25:23

Today if you go to some of the cathedrals of Europe and um I you know I can list off a whole lot of them but I mean you will find Mason's marks so I've done that I've travelled around Europe a few times and I was that guy that was looking in when I first started I was sort of looking and so hang on most of the marks did I miss something most of the marks uh facing inwards how would you find the mark? Well you would have had to either been part of the building yeah well sometimes they faced outwards.

SPEAKER_03 25:50

I mean but you know don't don't go well no I'm not sure because I wasn't I'm not a 13th century operative Mason but one I'm a 21st century speculative Mason. What what happened basically was it was the rules of whatever lodge that you were with as to where you put your particular mark. Right I I'm whether it's showing to the public or not I mean to me I don't I think it's a bit sort of in your face or it's a bit sort of being a bit proud if you have your Mason's mark facing the public. So consequently it was usually um not viewable. However as as the time went on and places were repaired the concept of being a an operative mason changed and you may have put material into a building that didn't have a mark. And so today when we look at uh some of these cathedrals I'm sure there's material without marks on it but the original operative masons definitely were paid on the basis of what they produced.

SPEAKER_04 26:53

So I've been around Europe and I've had a look and I didn't realize what you just said and I was always looking for the different stone which was the foundation stone.

SPEAKER_03 27:04

Now that's a different stone altogether isn't it that's the one that they lay first or something or I wasn't I'm not sure what that's indeed they used to lay the foundation stone pretty soon you know I mean not necessarily first but you know very much towards the beginning of the usually I think from memory in the northeast corner.

SPEAKER_04 27:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 27:21

If you take a look at most cathedrals or large stone buildings today that were produced 200 years ago you will find usually the foundation stone somewhere in the northeast it was just tradition. There was no well it's a bit of symbolism there but it's probably to do with something to do with the sun sunrise you know that sort of thing sunrises in the east um so yeah mason's marks were definitely a an important part uh of masonry and uh it moves on so that that fourth degree is what um is all about mason masons and marks the fifth degree on the other hand now that it's starting to get in a wee bit into um into your head stuff it's uh all about love it yeah it's about moving moving people away into captivity which is is sort of historic it's based on the when Babylon invaded uh what we now know as the the country

Operative Masons And How Marks Worked

SPEAKER_03 28:20

around Jerusalem and enslaved the um uh the Jews and taught them back to Babylon um and this really is symbolic about the fact that what people can be taken aback. The the people if they if they don't if they don't follow through giving their word uh if you give your word to somebody then you're expected to keep it and what happened with uh the invasion by Babylon into Jerusalem was that there is there are some scholars and some historians to believe that the they were not actually paying due homage to the Babylonians they were not paying their their dues their their sort of taxes to the Babylonians and the Babylonians one day decided to invade. And so they invaded there and they took the Jews hostage back to Babylon um and that that degree the that fifth degree is called the excellent degree and that particular degree is about how if you don't keep your word sooner or later something doesn't that happens that's that's not you know it's a shock. It's not good for you but you you can still redeem yourself and what happens in the excellent degree is of course the Babylonians historically get um um beaten. So Cyrus king of Persia comes along and he conquers the uh Babylonian Empire and he says to the Jews well you can go back home again uh provided you provided you you play by the rules and pay your taxes on time and of course the exant degree is about Jewish people coming out of Babylon back to um move the armchair yeah just move that armchair if you want uh Graham just pull the mic to you if you want to sit there you go and basically um because the yeah that they've been given their freedom they go back um to Jerusalem and of course in the meantime King Solomon's temple had been um destroyed um and this is all history I mean you you can read this without it actually putting any connotations to it uh and they help reconstruct the new temple the second temple of King Solomon well king Solomon on the site of King Solomon uh and that whole process now you might say well what's the inter what's the interest about the destruction of a temple and the construction of a temple well it's about uh the individual Mason

Fidelity And Rebuilding Yourself

SPEAKER_03 30:56

he deconstructs the bad stuff he gets rid of the bad stuff he thinks to himself well you know what's what is it that's um in my life that's holding me back what is it that's that's causing me a few issues what's what is it that I've done that I shouldn't have done well I need to I need to I need to be comfortable with myself I need to get rid of that and I then once I've got rid of that I may go back and reconstruct myself in a better way and so King Solomon's temple becomes a sort of symbol of your own self your own person who has looked at yourself and said well I need to change I need to I need to throw away the bad stuff get rid of the bad and take on the good and by the time I'm held to account by uh we call him the the great architect of the universe or the great overseer of the universe or the most high we call him that because the name of God can be in many many many languages in many religions so Freemasonry accepts all religions as long as they believe in a supreme being and so consequently the temple that we're talking about is your own personal temple uh your own heart your own mind so we reconstruct our own mind and we just use the reconstruction of King Solomon's temple as a symbol of that process.

SPEAKER_04 32:20

So there's a lot of uh there's a lot of other traditions and a lot of other philosophies and a lot of other things in humanity that we have that baptism the well like a baptism being reborn um I think in military you strip people down psychologically you strip them down and then you build them up again. And I remember a famous quote from Bruce Lee where he says he's talking about a cup and it's full of water and uh he says you cannot have any more water in the cup. You need to empty the cup to be able to refill it with new water and so it's that kind of thing you're having to get rid of the old and bring in the new okay so is that not done in the first three degrees then it actually is done it is done but the point is that it's reinforced in the chapter. Right.

SPEAKER_03 33:04

In the chapter it's about change change change everything that you see about the fifth and sixth degree is looking at yourself and changing for the better. And by the time you you uh conferred with the uh sixth degree which is the royal arch degree the royal arch degree is about masons that used to work on arches now arches are one of the hardest uh particular forms to create I went to sorry to interject then but I remember looking at the uh the Oculi in over in I think it's in it's in it's in it's in Italy somewhere I'm pretty sure yeah uh it was a long time ago when I went there and it's a dome but it's got the hole in the middle.

SPEAKER_04 33:49

Yes and I was looking up at it and I was going oh yeah whatever and then I thought I went hang on a minute how's that yeah so interesting it's that so these archways you talk about previously they were just like in our doorways they're just a square top so what so what sort of a lintel shape yeah just a but but so the Royal Arch degree is about making arches which are are the hardest form of structure to make in stone.

SPEAKER_03 34:19

And so consequently uh when you achieve the Royal Arch what you're basically saying is you've your Masonic career has actually achieved what you can achieve. You've you've gotten as far as you can go. Now the sixth degree in masonry I mean four to six are not worked by everybody. Not everybody who joins masonry decides to join the Royal Arch and that's fine. And so you don't have to if you don't want to no no it's purely voluntary right um if you wish and I I would think uh probably three out of four Masons are quite happy with being what we call craft masons in the in the Blue Lodge. Yep. Uh quite happy there and so be it. Uh about a quarter would probably go on um and do their fill four to sixth degree um and get something out of it. But like everything in uh in masonry if you don't get anything out yeah about it you know you don't get anything from it then what you do is you you quietly disappear. Not that not that we hope that people do that but um the people that do um go onto the royal arch seem to get an enthusiasm uh that it adds a little bit extra to masonry and it just completes their their progress and uh all I can say to people is that again as part of you know if you're starting to talk about six degrees it's getting harder it's getting harder to understand it it's getting harder to to maintain um your own uh pathway and so is there any more than six in New Zealand uh Grand Lodge our Grand Lodge only recognises the first six degrees that what we've been talking about um there are other side orders they're called side orders because they're not part of classical masonry they often have a theme and that theme does not necessarily have to be in alignment with all what I've just been talking about. It can be much more specialized it can be much more focused. Some of them are Christian degrees well of course I've not gone down that path because basically I think um in my you know the church to me is one thing uh masonry to me is about uh universal God rather than you know in other words one that can be called many names and it's a and it's a force for inclusion it it includes everybody uh it doesn't exclude anybody and I do find that to a certain extent if I was to to go down a particular religious point of view I I would find that it's a bit hard to accept that I would have to exclude other people from my path my my my insights my thoughts about what it is to be a good man. Yeah wonderful I'm not trying to be I've got to be careful here it makes it sound a wee bit like I'm putting myself on a pedestal I'm not um I you know we're constantly trying to be good uh there's always going to be challenges out there that um that get at me so um yeah I I've got what I've got out of masonry but but I don't want to say in any way that um you know I I've got I've reached a certain stage or I or not because basically it's a constant battle we all face all the time.

SPEAKER_04 37:41

Well it sounds like it's a continual thing working with yourself.

SPEAKER_03 37:45

Indeed and then and yeah that's do you find yourself still learning like really learning oh man there is things that that are really um not the word shock is probably a too big a word um I find absolutely fascinating to suddenly come across something and say to myself gosh why didn't I figure that out for myself?

SPEAKER_01 38:08

And and and and do you come across these teachings because you've just read something on the internet through a lecture a a young or new brother?

SPEAKER_03 38:17

Yes all of that um sometimes it's the newest brother that you know that comes along and checks you uh and and half the time they don't even know they're doing it. But you're you're quite right. One of the things I think um that I try to maintain is a sort of level of humbleness because if you think that you know it all you're you're in for a downfall sooner or later. And from even the newest brother we can learn something. And I find it absolutely fascinating to talk to these people. Some of them are a little bit intimidated by titles and that's why I try to remove as much as possible.

SPEAKER_04 38:58

I've got to be honest it's quite it is it was one of the well it is still is one of the things that it gets me every now and then you know it does me but the more that I interact the more I'm like okay.

SPEAKER_03 39:08

You suddenly realize that it doesn't matter whether they're a very worshipable or right worshipful or whatever they're still human beings. So essentially there's a pathway that w we've got um we can take uh and it may lead to higher promotion and there's nothing wrong with that uh although we've got to remain humble um because in the end sooner or later um even the most proud person has a fall yeah we all know that and so can we talk about your progress then so as in for your formal um achievements through masonry so you were initiated then you went through the first second and third and you became a master mason sure and then I assume that you would have taken offices and then you would have gone and become a worshipful master. Yes I I did become a worshipful master I've been a worshipful master four times all up um greedy uh interesting concept of of a worshipful master everybody sort of suddenly

Leadership Through Office And Family Balance

SPEAKER_03 40:10

it becomes their responsibility to make things happen and no it's really not true um there are three people that make the lodge work properly they include the two wardens both junior and senior warden they've got their jobs to do as well and the master should delegate as much as possible uh without overdelegating um and what happens with being a master is that you learn how to lead people right now leading people does not always come naturally you might say oh that's a natural born leader over there you know well I would say that somewhere on their life that person's had some insights given to them or training or training that give them that leadership potential. But we find in Masonry there's a lot of men that join who've never been in that um leadership role necessarily um and that what happens is as they progress through the various offices that are in masonry they gain confidence they gain they get better and better and they no longer they're no longer to speak are scared to speak in public. They are no longer um scared to give an opinion they give an opinion but they're also mindful of others but suddenly they get that opportunity to lead people and I think it's a wonderful experience I think you you suddenly realize you've got talents that have often been left behind or you've never been exposed to the opportunity of using and you get better and better and by the time I've seen people absolutely blossom in terms of uh their abilities in the in the chair um I've seen people who have had stutters uh that have had speech impediments of of whatever and I've seen them do a magnificent job because they were given the opportunity and they took to it and it's just magnificent to watch a new person who's gone into office as Master Mason blossom into that person that they didn't know they could be yeah I couldn't agree with more I mean uh I I don't like speaking publicly either but here I am with a podcast but uh yeah you feel good don't you yeah you there's a sense of achievement after you've done some of these things. Well isn't that one of the biggest human fears public speaking you know well yes you you're quite right you're quite right but it you it's only a fear if you don't realize that the persons or people that you're speaking to at the time it doesn't matter if there's a hundred people there if you can identify to what they're thinking if you can speak to what they're thinking to what their values are what their what their hopes are you can be inspiring. And I think if we can see more and more of the younger people coming through uh to rather than having you know what we call recycled past masters that means a person who's been uh master of the lodge going back a second third fourth time to me there's no virtue if you've been a master of a lodge five times what what needs to happen is that um you need to let the younger ones come through you need to let them shine let them have their their time in the sun um and that opportunity um gives them so much confidence and so much uh sort of good feeling about themselves that I I do worry about people who say oh there's nobody re yet ready to to take on the role I do worry about that because I'm not sure if I was to ask a little bit more deeply that I would find maybe there's somebody else that wants the job or or there may be some other reason why it's been not been given to them.

unknown 43:59

But

SPEAKER_03 44:00

But I think if a person wants it, they think they can handle it, they give it, and uh and they and they have their time. And this is you know, it's been difficult in the over the last 10 or 15 years because society's changed a lot, and of course, the role of master does take a lot of time. Uh, and it's a matter of realizing that when you, as a sp uh standard officer of a lodge, rather than being master, have you got the time to put into uh the learning processes that you need to go through? Have you got time to the practices? Have you got time for um actually reading about masonry? And this all you know, this is in a time when your family is important. Um and you know, I wouldn't recommend that anybody with young children necessarily take on the role of master because it might might interfere with some of the um family family life. So one has to make a decision. Uh, if you're asked to being a master, you have to consider your family first, you have to consider the situation you're in, your workload, before you say yes. And once once you've decided to say yes, then um have your time.

SPEAKER_01 45:18

And you're right, it is a big job, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 45:20

It is a big job.

SPEAKER_04 45:21

There's a lot of commitment travelling, yeah, yeah, visiting and and a lot of work in behind the scenes and everything.

SPEAKER_03 45:28

So very satisfying, though. Very satisfying.

SPEAKER_04 45:30

So you did that four times, and then uh is that when you went on to the royal arch? When did that come into that then?

SPEAKER_03 45:38

No, you've got to be careful here. You we don't use the word master in the royal arch, uh we use the word first principle. So I mean sorry from yeah, yeah. I've been first principal many other times, you know. What's the first principle? So I was saying from first principle's the equivalent of a master in a chapter.

SPEAKER_04 45:53

Right. So I was just saying, so you you did your you you became a worshipful master of the Blue Lodge. Yeah. When did you then look at and what made you look at becoming and going into the royal art? Into the chapter. Into the chapter.

SPEAKER_03 46:07

I think it was around about uh when I was uh senior warden, I think that I decided to join a chapter. Okay. Um and you know, okay, sure, and you when you become master of your lodge, you don't want to be in high office in the chapter, that's for sure. You you know, you would like a bit of a rest. So we'd always recommend that a person who is uh in uh a a good role in the when I say good, I mean um distinctive role in in the chapter uh in the uh in the craft to take his time before he starts taking on larger roles in the chapter. Um so I I went through there and some years later, of course, became uh, well, there's three principals, and you know, I went in line and eventually made it to the first principal and I enjoyed myself a lot. I've been a first principal many, many times, more times than I've been a master.

SPEAKER_04 46:59

Oh wow. So what made you want to become a what made you want to go into the royal art?

SPEAKER_03 47:04

Well, remember I was telling you it's about completing your learning cycle. It's about completing what that is available for you to learn. Right. And some of it to a certain extent is repetition in the sense that you do uh the the same theme comes through of change, but it's done in a slightly different way. Okay. Okay, so you're not bored with it or anything like that. You know, it's it's still quite useful, quite interesting. Um there is another uh particular order I'm also a member of, and that's the cryptic council. Uh the cryptic council is really part of the the chapter. It's really it's uh four degrees, they're very short, not very long, but they account for some of the his historical aspects of the chapter, of the the historical side of um of what happened when remember I was talking to you a bit about uh when Babylon invaded and yeah, the Persians um uh did some nasty things to the Babylonians. Uh it's all a bit of history. So those degrees are there for you to do to be informed a little bit about the historical aspect rather than you're not making an incredibly great journey, you know, of of learning. You're learning basically the historic or the history behind that process. So that's available. And you have what the the equivalent is they're called the thrice illustrious master. He's been master of the lodge, he's been first principal of a chapter, and now he's the master of a cryptic council. So when you say thrice illustrious, so cryptic meaning is that we've got to be careful here with the word cryptic. Is it cryptic? Cryptic. If you look in a dictionary, you'll find that cryptic's to do with something uh usually hidden, you know. Um in this case it actually means about a crypt.

SPEAKER_04 49:09

So we're talking the the tomb. Is it like a tomb?

SPEAKER_03 49:12

Uh well, cryptic, um, it just means that crypt. There is there is a crypt involved in the cryp um in the cryptic council. All right.

SPEAKER_04 49:23

And this is it a gang thing. No.

SPEAKER_03 49:30

Well, I suppose you could say it is. You could say it is, but no, it's with um cryptic, it it not only the word hidden really meant that most crypts are hidden away from the general public. They're not, you know. I mean, you don't go into a crypt uh to worship or anything. I remember that program Tells from the Crypt, and it was like so is it not a tomb, it's like a Yeah, it was but the amazing thing about it is a crypt usually has an arch.

SPEAKER_04 49:56

Oh, there we go.

SPEAKER_03 49:57

A number of arches.

SPEAKER_04 49:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 49:59

So anyway, yep.

SPEAKER_04 50:00

So you've got Thrice Illustrious.

SPEAKER_03 50:02

So Thrice Illustrious is the is the final stage for my in my career.

SPEAKER_04 50:05

Right, wow.

SPEAKER_03 50:06

Which you have I yeah, I've I've achieved all those, yeah. But um Wow.

SPEAKER_01 50:12

Can I bring it back to just the rural arch just again slightly? Okay. We we mentioned that the Markmaster is about responsibility.

SPEAKER_03 50:22

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 50:24

And the excellent was about keeping your word, or you used the word earlier, fidelity. What would you say the lesson of the sixth, the royal arch itself, would be?

SPEAKER_03 50:37

Yeah, okay. Well now we're getting into um we're getting into opinion here. This is there'll be many people that will have different opinions than I've got, and I want to

The Royal Arch Lesson And Spiritual Wages

SPEAKER_03 50:48

acknowledge that that I can only give you an an opinion.

SPEAKER_04 50:51

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 50:51

Okay, the the Royal Arch is about the achievement of something of a high value. Because, as I said to remember, uh anybody that could produce archways w was pretty darn good. Yeah, right. So it's got to be of high value. So ask yourself what is of high value to you? Now I I want to go back to a line that you will find in craft masonry. And this line is stuck with me for years. This line says to die regretted. Do you understand what I'm getting at? To die regretted. So in other words, your friends, when you die, regret regret the fa the fact that you have died.

SPEAKER_04 51:38

Oh, not the fact that you have done anything that you regret before you die.

SPEAKER_03 51:42

No, to die regretted. Meaning essentially, other people would say, I knew that man.

SPEAKER_01 51:47

And he was of good quality, good character.

SPEAKER_04 51:49

And I regret that he's dead now.

SPEAKER_03 51:51

Yeah, I liked him a lot.

SPEAKER_04 51:53

Right. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 51:54

Okay, so that's one line back in craft masonry would go right over the top of people if that wasn't explained. Yep. So what is this connection between the die regretted and and the royal arch? Well, the royal arch is basically for you to think about before you die what it is that you really need to do over your life and what you need to do uh to improve yourself. It's the final step of improvement.

SPEAKER_04 52:30

Would it be like your purpose? Yeah, purpose is. What is your purpose? If you're not doing it, then you haven't lived your purpose.

SPEAKER_03 52:37

So what are the reward that you gain in the Royal Arch, if you can use the word reward, careful here, it's not sort of monetary reward, is a spiritual reward. Yeah. Alright? Yeah. Now the spiritual reward is hinted to you all the way through the craft. Yeah. I'm going to say something to you that's reasonably cryptic, if you pardon the expression. If you take a look um at this second degree tracing board and you look at the stairway and you go to what they call the holy of holies to receive your wages due. These are not monetary wages. No monetary wage would ever be paid in the most sacred place of a Jewish temple. Right. So what what is what is the wage that's paid?

SPEAKER_04 53:29

Well, you mentioned the word, well, yeah, so you said dues. It's funny enough, because a couple of weeks ago I had just somewhere or other that had just come up as to, I think I read as to what what they were talking about with regards to Jews, because it's not is that where are you talking about the same thing? What is it?

SPEAKER_03 53:47

Actually, dues is a different um a double meaning. Or maybe more than a double meaning, but it it's more than just it's not about you you get what you deserve. Do you understand what I'm getting at?

SPEAKER_04 53:59

Right.

SPEAKER_03 54:00

Your wages due.

SPEAKER_04 54:01

You get what you're due.

SPEAKER_03 54:03

You get what you deserve. Right. Now, the royal arch, you get what you deserve. Now, does that mean that you could get punished?

SPEAKER_04 54:13

Maybe. If you deserve it, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 54:15

Possibly. Um, does that mean that you could be rewarded? Well, then the question then becomes, what are you rewarded with? A spiritual reward. Yeah. So it the Royal Arch is about achieving comfortableness with yourself to know that when you die, you have be or you will be regretted. Because of because you've lived a good life.

SPEAKER_04 54:40

And you start that, you start that process and the enter the prentice. Well on. Well said, well said. And you learn how to be better and better and better as you grow, and as you learn and grow, then you die, and then you will be hopefully remembered for all of the good stuff and being a good bugger. That's it.

SPEAKER_01 55:00

So this is interesting. Wow. So to there's more to it than that, guys.

SPEAKER_03 55:03

But I think, but I think at this stage, I think I've given you the overview. Yeah. Um, there's more detail, but I could go into, but I I think at this stage, no, let's stick with the overview, uh, because I think it it it connects with people a lot easier than if you if you get into too much detail. Um, so the whole career path that I've gone through, yeah, when I achieved the um the you know, being uh given the the the the holy rod arch um uh degree, I felt, wow, there's something happened here. I'm not quite sure what it is, and I need to go and have a look uh you know, look look at it in a bit more detail and see what it actually is and make some sense out of it. And that's the sense that I've just communicated to you, but my sense is distinctive to me. It might be something different to someone else. Yeah, wow.

SPEAKER_01 55:57

So can I just just recap responsibility, vitality, uh, achievement? Is there a rule of three there?

SPEAKER_03 56:08

Yeah, well, in uh in Freemasonry, the rule of three uh occurs everywhere. Includes, especially in the uh blue degrees, that's the the craft degrees. The rule of three basically says that uh when you look at uh some concepts, if you take extreme views about those concepts, you can actually be in the bad territory, you can actually be um

The Rule Of Three: Wisdom In The Middle

SPEAKER_03 56:35

uh not practicing good uh behavior amongst yourselves and amongst your fellows and amongst your society. So what happens is that there are two extremes that you can either be so good at the one extreme and so then and not to be so good at the other that you don't actually achieve very much. So the the rule of three basically means there's always a third factor that you should um you think about. And I use the expression, or I'm not the expression, I use the example, um to think in terms of uh uh strength, beauty, and wisdom. Strength is about energy, it's about doing something, it's about commitment, it's about wanting to achieve something. Okay. Beauty is something that's useful, something that's nice to look at, something that you feel comfortable with, something that you you think is good. That is beauty. You you know, it's it's a very wide definition. If you're so busy producing something with energy, then you're not going necessarily anywhere. You you your energy is undefined, it's not actually achieving much, it's just going around in circles, or it's just expending energy for no for no direction. Go that's one extreme. The other extreme is beauty, where you're so busy with these wonderful ideas, these these grand ideas, these uh things that help people, but you're not actually doing anything. You're just thinking about it, you're just not actually uh uh putting it and making it into action or into reality. Uh so those are the two extremes and what's in the middle. And if you know your your rule of three, you'll know that wisdom is in the middle. And if you look at this the first tracing board, you'll see the three columns wisdom, strength, and beauty. And wisdom is always in the background, it's that delicate little column, a little it's a little than the other ones, because it's being in the background. It's sort of halfway in terms of beauty and halfway in terms of strength. But basically, what wisdom does is is try to regulate the extremes of strength and beauty to actually make something achieved, something really useful achieved. So that's the rule of three, it's a good example. There are many, many more, but I again I think we'll be here for the next two hours talking about these those um rules of three.

SPEAKER_01 59:09

And you're going to give a bit of a talk about this coming up um very soon, yes?

SPEAKER_03 59:14

Yes. Um I do. Um, and it's it's quite interesting to watch the audience, if you can use the word audience, um, because when some of these points that I've just tried to make uh come out in what what we do, you can almost see the people wow. So the light goes off. So that's what it's about, you know. So that's where we're going, that's what it's all about. Uh and it's lovely, I suppose you can say uh one of the reasons I do it as much as I can is because I love to see that reaction.

SPEAKER_04 59:49

Is that part of your service? Is that part is that part of the um uh regret? The regret that you were talking about earlier. Oh um, would that be part of yours?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:01

I I don't have regret.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:02

No, as in as in you want us, you know, that you I one of my well, I suppose you can one of my motives for for um doing what I'm doing today and doing other things in an actual lodge room is to try to give them or people in the audience some indication of what our ritual means. Um because it's easily uh overlooked. We can be so busy memorizing it, we can be so busy delivering it, but but to be delivering it with some knowledge and understanding about what the the the um ritual is trying to say, it allows you to walk up to somebody after it's been delivered and say, Well, did you think about this point here? Or did you did what was what what was your impression or something of these nature of this nature? So that you basically you you want them enthused so they ask more questions. Um because eventually I've been into situations where it's gone on so long that uh you can see half the audience is say, Oh my gosh, I wonder how long it's going to go on for. But you've you've got to be disciplined in the sense that you've got to say, Well, look, you know, this is enough for tonight. We we can't do it anymore. Um, but feel free to ring me or ask a question or or whatever whenever you see me. And that's what I try to do when I go to a meeting. If somebody wants to ask me a question, happy to give an opinion on it. But um but I always say, go back, remember, this whole process you're going through is one of self-enlightenment. It's not all about listening to me, and I'm not going to create some sort of doctrine that you must believe in. You've got to figure it out for yourself. And as long as you can keep thinking in terms of what's this literal uh ritual trying to say and why is it trying to say it, rather than just listening to me who's already gone down the path maybe 20 or 30 years ago, I've got my opinion, but it may not be right.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:03

And so, based on that, then I have a question about um is there an absolute right and an absolute wrong then? No. Wow, there you go.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:16

No, I tell you, I'll give the classic example. I mean, this is the old ethics question. Remember, I told you some years and years ago about teaching ethics. You're in a lifeboat. There's 50 or 60, you're 50 or 60 people. The old lifeboat routine. Is it the lifeboat or the train?

SPEAKER_04 1:02:34

Uh lifeboat or train.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:36

Yeah, you've got more people that that can, you know, if you if you end the life of some, uh, you may save the other. Um so you I usually ask the question, is there a justification for very nasty things called murder? And when is it okay to be able to do that? Yeah, and boy, you you'll get some reactions to that. Um, I'm not really here to establish right and wrong. I'm just saying to you that there is there are times in your life when you really the shade of right and the shade of wrong become a little bit blurred, and you've got to keep on thinking to yourself this one last point. If whatever I do, is it just? Is what it is? Is it is it the you know, is it the right thing from a just point of view? And that's the final thing, and I referred you to uh ritual, uh, the degree of after initiation tells you the final test of any decision you make is is what you're doing just?

SPEAKER_04 1:03:40

So you've got to have thought about your decision, about your the impact of your the impact of your decision on other people. Yep, yep. That's brilliant. So yeah, wow, yeah, that's super cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:51

Well, that's great. I think we'll probably end it on that. I think we're gonna wrap that up. That's been a a real pleasure, and that's been well over an hour.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:02

Can I just quickly ask um about your it's probably gonna be a bit longer than that, uh your um hopes for the future for Freemasonry then?

SPEAKER_03 1:04:14

Well, my hope for the future is to be part of a process where like try to explain as much as possible about the actual meaning of our ritual and and the and what the gold is buried in in amongst it. Sounds like some good gold. Yeah. Um, and to be able to do that for the next 20 years, uh and when my life ends, and you know, whatever, um, I would like to be able to think that I've done my bit uh to help the next generation. They have

Hopes For The Craft And Closing

SPEAKER_03 1:04:46

in they have actually in the tracing board a point which where the role the actual directions of the boards reverse. If you take a look in the first and second degree boards, they're always east-west, but in the third degree board it goes west-east. And why? Because as when you when you are due to to meet your maker, you should have been looking back to help your fellow uh your fellow masons come forward, and that's what I hope to do, to be able to look back and help the my fellow Masons come to more towards the East, more towards being master, more towards being master of themselves.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:26

Brilliant, brilliant. Well said. Well, look, it was been it's been a great chat. Thank you very much, um, Just Graham. It's been wonderful chat, and uh I'd love to have some more chats with you in the future.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:38

Well, you know, I I would be only too happy to, but I think you need some variety of opinion now.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:45

This is all this is, this is just everyone's opinion. I've got one, and uh usually people don't like mine. I don't even know if I do now. I'm gonna have to review my own opinion. Okay, thank you very much. No trouble.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:00

Thanks for listening to the Masonic mic. The views expressed by our hosts and guests are their own and don't necessarily reflect those of Grand Lodge or any affiliated body. Before you go, be sure to download the Masonica app to stay connected and support the show for more Masonic resources, blogs, and podcasts. Remember to subscribe, like and share, and until next time, stay square.